Proposal For Comptech S/C'ers
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 17,004
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From: Santa Cruz, CA, US
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ultimate lurker
[B]Of course, since Jackson Racing has exclusive aftermarket rights to Eatons for the Honda market, you'd have to choose a different blower type, but that's not so bad.
[B]Of course, since Jackson Racing has exclusive aftermarket rights to Eatons for the Honda market, you'd have to choose a different blower type, but that's not so bad.
Registered User
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 609
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From: Rockville
We can wait and see what happens with 1Randyc and the comptech SC -
He already has an intercooler built and installed (I am pretty sure it is installed) and is now looking into having a smaller pulley built for more boost.
I don't know what he plans to do for engine management.
Hey Randy, if you see this, post your impressions of the SC with the intercooler.
He already has an intercooler built and installed (I am pretty sure it is installed) and is now looking into having a smaller pulley built for more boost.
I don't know what he plans to do for engine management.
Hey Randy, if you see this, post your impressions of the SC with the intercooler.
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,349
Likes: 5
From: Ocean City
Besides the mechanical problems of High RPM blowers, you also have the mach problem, you can only go so fast before the disruption of the air is more trouble than its worth. Thats why you need a transmission, you cant just link a blower to the F20c (with such a wide RPM range) and expect it work throughout all RPM.
The mach problem tells you to get a bigger turbo instead of spooling faster. My brain has a hard time keeping up with
even 140,000 RPM
The mach problem tells you to get a bigger turbo instead of spooling faster. My brain has a hard time keeping up with
even 140,000 RPM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,269
Likes: 42
From: Redmond, WA
Originally posted by cmnsnse
Besides the mechanical problems of High RPM blowers, you also have the mach problem, you can only go so fast before the disruption of the air is more trouble than its worth.
Besides the mechanical problems of High RPM blowers, you also have the mach problem, you can only go so fast before the disruption of the air is more trouble than its worth.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,895
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From: You wish
Originally posted by marcucci
[B]
If GM uses them it's new to me... I know for a fact that as recently as 96 the supercharged 3800 Buicks don't use an intercooler. Do you know what GM models have them? I've only heard of one aftermarket one that's pretty pricey (~$3k).
[B]
I've been wrong before. The only reference I could find was a 300 hp Pontia Grand Prix demonstrator. Perhaps it isn't used on production engines.
Understandably the motor is very different, but the guy is experienced enough with this sort of thing that I don't expect it to be a setup problem (at least not a basic one). At least, nothing more than you would encounter on the F20. He's running larger injectors (sized for the turbo) as well as an FPR, larger pump, and an a/f gauge. He's also got water injection on it, too.
Our consensus (one that a Magnusson engineer corroborated) is that the efficiency of the blower in the upper ranges, at least at this pressure/airflow, is just too low for this motor. Maybe the higher power levels of the F20 would change this, maybe not; I would think that to be a linear thing.
UL, how sure of those temps numbers you quoted are you for that boost? That sounds awful low to me compared to what we've seen in practice. From my friend's experiement here, I would think it's much hotter in actuality.
I tihnk the issue with the example you described is multifold. First, the boost level. When I went from 6 to 8 psi on my app, I gained very little power, even though I have a fully mappable ECU. Compared to the 45% gains in power and 40% gains in torque I got when I first added the kit, I was disappointed. At anything much above 6-7 psi non-intercooled Eatons are not very good (wouldn't run a turbo there either without an intercooler). The location of the blower above the exhaust is not good either. As for the rest, I'm not sure why the engineer would say the blower was too big? An M45 is too small for my D16 above 8 psi and an M62 is just about right for a B18C. Thus, I suspect an M90 would work very well for a F20C.
As for temps, the 70 F number is quote from Jackson for their stock kit. I measured the delta T myself when we wnt to 8 psi. On a 60-65 F ambient day, we were seeing 200-210 in the intake manifold. Temp started lower and climbed till it levelled off at 8 psi and 6500-7000 rpm. We were able to reduce that with some clever engineering though. If your numbers were much higher, outside what the higher boost you were running dictated, I'd say there were some extentuating circumstances as some tests performed by SCC jive with my results. BTW, my only detonation issues come in over 6500 rpm. With my current pulley ratio, that's a blower speed of about 12,000 rpm, where the temp curve goes non-linear, so I'm not surprised.
As for expected power, I'd say a properly executed 6 psi kit on an F20C, based upon my experience with D16s and B18Cs, would generate about 275 whp and 185 lbs-ft.
UL
[B]
If GM uses them it's new to me... I know for a fact that as recently as 96 the supercharged 3800 Buicks don't use an intercooler. Do you know what GM models have them? I've only heard of one aftermarket one that's pretty pricey (~$3k).
[B]
I've been wrong before. The only reference I could find was a 300 hp Pontia Grand Prix demonstrator. Perhaps it isn't used on production engines.
Understandably the motor is very different, but the guy is experienced enough with this sort of thing that I don't expect it to be a setup problem (at least not a basic one). At least, nothing more than you would encounter on the F20. He's running larger injectors (sized for the turbo) as well as an FPR, larger pump, and an a/f gauge. He's also got water injection on it, too.
Our consensus (one that a Magnusson engineer corroborated) is that the efficiency of the blower in the upper ranges, at least at this pressure/airflow, is just too low for this motor. Maybe the higher power levels of the F20 would change this, maybe not; I would think that to be a linear thing.
UL, how sure of those temps numbers you quoted are you for that boost? That sounds awful low to me compared to what we've seen in practice. From my friend's experiement here, I would think it's much hotter in actuality.
I tihnk the issue with the example you described is multifold. First, the boost level. When I went from 6 to 8 psi on my app, I gained very little power, even though I have a fully mappable ECU. Compared to the 45% gains in power and 40% gains in torque I got when I first added the kit, I was disappointed. At anything much above 6-7 psi non-intercooled Eatons are not very good (wouldn't run a turbo there either without an intercooler). The location of the blower above the exhaust is not good either. As for the rest, I'm not sure why the engineer would say the blower was too big? An M45 is too small for my D16 above 8 psi and an M62 is just about right for a B18C. Thus, I suspect an M90 would work very well for a F20C.
As for temps, the 70 F number is quote from Jackson for their stock kit. I measured the delta T myself when we wnt to 8 psi. On a 60-65 F ambient day, we were seeing 200-210 in the intake manifold. Temp started lower and climbed till it levelled off at 8 psi and 6500-7000 rpm. We were able to reduce that with some clever engineering though. If your numbers were much higher, outside what the higher boost you were running dictated, I'd say there were some extentuating circumstances as some tests performed by SCC jive with my results. BTW, my only detonation issues come in over 6500 rpm. With my current pulley ratio, that's a blower speed of about 12,000 rpm, where the temp curve goes non-linear, so I'm not surprised.
As for expected power, I'd say a properly executed 6 psi kit on an F20C, based upon my experience with D16s and B18Cs, would generate about 275 whp and 185 lbs-ft.
UL
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 14,269
Likes: 42
From: Redmond, WA
Originally posted by cmnsnse
yep, tryin' to, how fast does that SC spin anyway?
yep, tryin' to, how fast does that SC spin anyway?
I think the impeller would need to be close to 2 feet diameter at 11,000 RPM before the SS things rear up (very rough calcs)
