Spark Plug tip broke.. HELP!
03-13-2016, 12:00 PM
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Spark Plug tip broke.. HELP!
Hey guys, sorry to sound so dramatic, but I'm in desperate need of advice.
Okay, story time:
So, a week ago, I threw 2 CELs.
1. P0302 (Misfire cylinder 2)
2. P1399 Pending (General Misfires from my research)
So, I swapped cylinder 1 and 2 coil packs and reset the code. I drove for about a week and I could hear some small misfires from the exhaust but nothing too major, but no new code!
Please note: when I took Cylinder 2 coil pack out, it was covered in a thick dark grease, but it didn't feel very slippery like oil..
Anyway, a week goes by and last Friday night, the misfires are getting worse but still no code. I get home and at idle, I can REALLY hear the misfires now (sounds like a Subaru). I immediately shut it off and read the engine and it's still got P1399 Pending, but no light and no specific Cylinder misfire.
Next morning, I decide I should pull all coils and plugs to check them so I fire the car up to pull it into the garage, and it's idling at almost 2k RPMs and literally sounds like it's on 3 cylinders. I quickly make it up the driveway (maybe had engine running for 2 minutes max) and I notice it flashes a CEL at me but by the time I shut it down and read it, just the same P1399 again.
So, I post on the local Facebook page and they tell me I should really do a valve adjustment if I think the coil packs are okay (and since I didn't throw any other specific cylinder codes for a week, I was lead to believe it wasn't a coil pack issue). So a friend comes over to do my valve adjustment.
We start pulling the coil packs out and the pack that I moved from 2 to 1 is still covered in that grease stuff.
Finally, we get to the spark plugs (New NGKs installed 2 months prior) and we were shocked to find that they were barely hand tight.. We start pulling them out and inspecting and to my utter shock, this is the plug that comes out of Cylinder 2 (pics below, but if they don't show, the tip of the plug is broken off).
[attachment=92396:IMG_0039.JPG]
Okay, now we know why it was misfiring and I would assume that the tip of the plug broke off that morning when it idled super high and sounded the worst it has. The plug was also drenched in oil.
Please also note that the tube seals were leaking pretty bad.
Okay, so now here's where I stand.. How much damage could that tip have done to my cylinder? Or, could it have just dropped into the oil pan or maybe out the exhaust?
I haven't had a chance to use a magnet or drain my oil or anything yet. And I'm leaving on vacation for 2 weeks so all suggestions will be tested when I get back.
Do I just try to use a magnet and find the tip (if it's even possible it's in one piece..) and then throw in a new plug and call it good?
Do I worry that there is detrimental damage to my cylinder or valve (keep in mind engine only ran a few minutes after the piece broke off. Or at least I can assume that's when it broke off).
Please guys, any advice would be so appreciated.
I have a 2000 ap1 with 86k miles and just installed a Comptech SC 2 months ago.
Okay, story time:
So, a week ago, I threw 2 CELs.
1. P0302 (Misfire cylinder 2)
2. P1399 Pending (General Misfires from my research)
So, I swapped cylinder 1 and 2 coil packs and reset the code. I drove for about a week and I could hear some small misfires from the exhaust but nothing too major, but no new code!
Please note: when I took Cylinder 2 coil pack out, it was covered in a thick dark grease, but it didn't feel very slippery like oil..
Anyway, a week goes by and last Friday night, the misfires are getting worse but still no code. I get home and at idle, I can REALLY hear the misfires now (sounds like a Subaru). I immediately shut it off and read the engine and it's still got P1399 Pending, but no light and no specific Cylinder misfire.
Next morning, I decide I should pull all coils and plugs to check them so I fire the car up to pull it into the garage, and it's idling at almost 2k RPMs and literally sounds like it's on 3 cylinders. I quickly make it up the driveway (maybe had engine running for 2 minutes max) and I notice it flashes a CEL at me but by the time I shut it down and read it, just the same P1399 again.
So, I post on the local Facebook page and they tell me I should really do a valve adjustment if I think the coil packs are okay (and since I didn't throw any other specific cylinder codes for a week, I was lead to believe it wasn't a coil pack issue). So a friend comes over to do my valve adjustment.
We start pulling the coil packs out and the pack that I moved from 2 to 1 is still covered in that grease stuff.
Finally, we get to the spark plugs (New NGKs installed 2 months prior) and we were shocked to find that they were barely hand tight.. We start pulling them out and inspecting and to my utter shock, this is the plug that comes out of Cylinder 2 (pics below, but if they don't show, the tip of the plug is broken off).
[attachment=92396:IMG_0039.JPG]
Okay, now we know why it was misfiring and I would assume that the tip of the plug broke off that morning when it idled super high and sounded the worst it has. The plug was also drenched in oil.
Please also note that the tube seals were leaking pretty bad.
Okay, so now here's where I stand.. How much damage could that tip have done to my cylinder? Or, could it have just dropped into the oil pan or maybe out the exhaust?
I haven't had a chance to use a magnet or drain my oil or anything yet. And I'm leaving on vacation for 2 weeks so all suggestions will be tested when I get back.
Do I just try to use a magnet and find the tip (if it's even possible it's in one piece..) and then throw in a new plug and call it good?
Do I worry that there is detrimental damage to my cylinder or valve (keep in mind engine only ran a few minutes after the piece broke off. Or at least I can assume that's when it broke off).
Please guys, any advice would be so appreciated.
I have a 2000 ap1 with 86k miles and just installed a Comptech SC 2 months ago.
03-13-2016, 12:35 PM
#2
Sometimes you can get lucky and have it blow out the exhaust, sometimes you get unlucky and it causes damage to the cylinder and valves. It won't be in the oil pan, if it made it to the oil pan it would have gouged the cylinder wall big time, but not likely to have happened.
Do you have access to a lighted inspection scope ?, if so fish it through the sparkplug hole and inspect the cylinder.
You could also swap in a new plug and see how the engine runs, chances are any damage would have been done by now, if it isn't damaged yet then you might be okay. You probably can't cause any more damage at this point. If the engine doesn't run properly with a new plug then the cylinder will be damaged. Put in new tube seals, clean all of the remaining plugs and coils.
It looks like you had some detonation that broke the plug, you should address the detonation issue to avoid future problems - running lean ? Maybe consider going to copper NGK v-power plugs, they are stronger and can hold up to detonation a bit better than thinner fine-wire Iridium and platinum plugs.
Do you have access to a lighted inspection scope ?, if so fish it through the sparkplug hole and inspect the cylinder.
You could also swap in a new plug and see how the engine runs, chances are any damage would have been done by now, if it isn't damaged yet then you might be okay. You probably can't cause any more damage at this point. If the engine doesn't run properly with a new plug then the cylinder will be damaged. Put in new tube seals, clean all of the remaining plugs and coils.
It looks like you had some detonation that broke the plug, you should address the detonation issue to avoid future problems - running lean ? Maybe consider going to copper NGK v-power plugs, they are stronger and can hold up to detonation a bit better than thinner fine-wire Iridium and platinum plugs.
03-13-2016, 01:07 PM
#3
Did you try to gap the plug or use fuel system cleaner?
03-13-2016, 01:16 PM
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Sometimes you can get lucky and have it blow out the exhaust, sometimes you get unlucky and it causes damage to the cylinder and valves. It won't be in the oil pan, if it made it to the oil pan it would have gouged the cylinder wall big time, but not likely to have happened.
Do you have access to a lighted inspection scope ?, if so fish it through the sparkplug hole and inspect the cylinder.
You could also swap in a new plug and see how the engine runs, chances are any damage would have been done by now, if it isn't damaged yet then you might be okay. You probably can't cause any more damage at this point. If the engine doesn't run properly with a new plug then the cylinder will be damaged. Put in new tube seals, clean all of the remaining plugs and coils.
It looks like you had some detonation that broke the plug, you should address the detonation issue to avoid future issues - running lean ? Maybe consider going to copper NGK v-power plugs, they are stronger and can hold up to detonation a bit better than thinner fine-wire Iridium and platinum plugs.
Do you have access to a lighted inspection scope ?, if so fish it through the sparkplug hole and inspect the cylinder.
You could also swap in a new plug and see how the engine runs, chances are any damage would have been done by now, if it isn't damaged yet then you might be okay. You probably can't cause any more damage at this point. If the engine doesn't run properly with a new plug then the cylinder will be damaged. Put in new tube seals, clean all of the remaining plugs and coils.
It looks like you had some detonation that broke the plug, you should address the detonation issue to avoid future issues - running lean ? Maybe consider going to copper NGK v-power plugs, they are stronger and can hold up to detonation a bit better than thinner fine-wire Iridium and platinum plugs.
Someone else did mention to try and use an inspection camera. Trying to get my hands on one. It's crazy to me that a tiny piece of metal could cause so much damage, but I saw pics from another guy and there were tiny chunks all over the piston. It was crazy
03-13-2016, 01:17 PM
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03-13-2016, 02:19 PM
#6
Do a compression test and hope for the best. I've known people who have unfortunately completely blown out pistons/cylinders like this.
If the cylinder/piston is toast then my recommendation would be to just buy a "new" long block. Maybe use this as an opportunity to go F22 block and re-use your current cylinder head assuming it's ok.
Your other option in the event of cylinder wall damage would be to bore out the FRM sleeves and use Mahle pistons, which isn't a bad idea but I think the F22 long block would make more sense both financially, reliability, and for power. Sorry this happened man, any idea why the plugs were so loose?
If the cylinder/piston is toast then my recommendation would be to just buy a "new" long block. Maybe use this as an opportunity to go F22 block and re-use your current cylinder head assuming it's ok.
Your other option in the event of cylinder wall damage would be to bore out the FRM sleeves and use Mahle pistons, which isn't a bad idea but I think the F22 long block would make more sense both financially, reliability, and for power. Sorry this happened man, any idea why the plugs were so loose?
03-13-2016, 02:29 PM
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Do a compression test and hope for the best. I've known people who have unfortunately completely blown out pistons/cylinders like this.
If the cylinder/piston is toast then my recommendation would be to just buy a "new" long block. Maybe use this as an opportunity to go F22 block and re-use your current cylinder head assuming it's ok.
Your other option in the event of cylinder wall damage would be to bore out the FRM sleeves and use Mahle pistons, which isn't a bad idea but I think the F22 long block would make more sense both financially, reliability, and for power. Sorry this happened man, any idea why the plugs were so loose?
If the cylinder/piston is toast then my recommendation would be to just buy a "new" long block. Maybe use this as an opportunity to go F22 block and re-use your current cylinder head assuming it's ok.
Your other option in the event of cylinder wall damage would be to bore out the FRM sleeves and use Mahle pistons, which isn't a bad idea but I think the F22 long block would make more sense both financially, reliability, and for power. Sorry this happened man, any idea why the plugs were so loose?
And I would need to see if my Supercharger could become compatible..
But I appreciate the advice! Hopefully it doesn't come to that.
And honestly, I don't know.. we installed the new plugs when we were doing my supercharger but my friend is the one who put them in (and he's more savvy than I am so I can't imagine he just thought they were tight enough..). Unless he meant to torque them and forgot? I don't wanna go around pointing fingers though. Do you think them being loose was a good indication of why this happened?
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03-13-2016, 03:33 PM
#8
I noticed that your are running BKR8EIX plugs. One step cooler than recommended NGK BKR7EIX. Has pre-ignition or knocking been an issue with this engine?
One other thing. Not sure if the "-11S" at the end of the OEM NGK (PFR7G-11S) maybe important. I believe that designation may have to do with the metal and porcelain tip electrode length. The non 11S may have the metal portion too deep and it could hit the top of the piston? Esp if you over-torque the plugs.
Just a WAG.
https://www.ngk.de/fileadmin/Dokumen...en_code_en.pdf
One other thing. Not sure if the "-11S" at the end of the OEM NGK (PFR7G-11S) maybe important. I believe that designation may have to do with the metal and porcelain tip electrode length. The non 11S may have the metal portion too deep and it could hit the top of the piston? Esp if you over-torque the plugs.
Just a WAG.
https://www.ngk.de/fileadmin/Dokumen...en_code_en.pdf
03-13-2016, 03:39 PM
#9
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These were the plugs that were recommended to run with my supercharger. No obvious knocking but never had a data log so it's hard to say. And sorry, I'm not sure what preignition is referring to?
03-13-2016, 03:48 PM
#10
Pre-ignition is when engine is running so hot, for whatever reason, that the air-fuel mixture combusts before the spark plug ignites.
http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue...ineBasics.html
Did you check your current plugs against an OEM one? For length of electrodes?
http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue...ineBasics.html
Did you check your current plugs against an OEM one? For length of electrodes?