Applying for college
09-01-2009, 07:25 AM
#21
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Dennis / Bill: You read that right. Though we discussed and my son selected the topics of interest to write about and worked off appropriate outlines, when someone else heavy edits, literally rewrites every sentence and reformats every paragraph, then this someone else wrote the essays - not you. I deemed it too important to leave it to him. Likewise, my granddaughter wrote a self-depricating essay on how a California party girl and academic screw-up turned her life around in mid HS and struggled to an average level of academic achievement with minimally qualifying SAT and ACT scores. I read it and said to myself that either she'll get accepted based on audacious honesty or be dumped as a potential problem and headcase. What would you have done - take a chance? Nope, it got 100% rewritten in an honest but more positive way. Could she now claim it as her own - probably not.
I've done a few thesis heavy edits for PhD candidates. I did my sister's Masters thesis. The theme and conclusions were still there, but they could hardly recognize their original work. Can they still claim it as their own? I say yes.
I've done a few thesis heavy edits for PhD candidates. I did my sister's Masters thesis. The theme and conclusions were still there, but they could hardly recognize their original work. Can they still claim it as their own? I say yes.
09-01-2009, 08:53 AM
#22
^ I guess it all comes down to where you draw the line. If you ever saw the move A River Runs Through It, there is an excellent scene showing the father reviewing the son's written work. Dad makes junior rewrite the paper three of four times, doing nothing more than pointing out the problems and then letting junior do the correcting. More time consuming, and more confrontational, for sure. But at the end of the day, the kid did all the work. That is the model I have tried (not with complete success) to follow.
Now when Chris gives me something to review, he always says "just for spelling and grammar." I'll still put notes in the margin asking if he is sure of his content. I try to do it in a way that sounds more mechanical than substantive, but I still do it.
Now when Chris gives me something to review, he always says "just for spelling and grammar." I'll still put notes in the margin asking if he is sure of his content. I try to do it in a way that sounds more mechanical than substantive, but I still do it.
09-01-2009, 11:57 AM
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^^ And, I know you are right and no argument from me. There is also a learning point to be made for "doesn't it read and sound better like this." Fact is most young people write like they speak, and it takes time for them to learn and apply the nuances of the written language. Essay readers and editors easily spot the differences.
09-01-2009, 04:39 PM
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You seem to be proud of the fact that you wrote these "successful" essays for your children. I see this as a disgrace.
The University of Virginia has the highest standard of honor with the typical tenets of lying, cheating, and stealing. It also has the strictest punishment, the single sanction.
On another note, college is a time to learn how to write more effectively and efficiently. If your children can already write "perfectly," why even apply to college?
The University of Virginia has the highest standard of honor with the typical tenets of lying, cheating, and stealing. It also has the strictest punishment, the single sanction.
On another note, college is a time to learn how to write more effectively and efficiently. If your children can already write "perfectly," why even apply to college?
09-01-2009, 05:39 PM
#26
Without wanting to point a finger or start a fight, I have to say that this is the other part of the college admission procedure that is very badly broken. Over zealous parents and students have so corrupted the application procedure that it's a wonder that it works at all.
If you've written the essay for your child or grandchild, who exactly is it thats getting accepted to the school? Yet, it's becomes very easy to justify either with "everybody does it so why shouldn't I", or with "I'm just trying to help my child get ahead". Indeed, you are trying to help your child get ahead, but you are doing it fraudulently. If you've heavily edited the essay and rewritten the sentences using your words, phrases and grammar, in spite of the fact that you've been faithful to the intended meaning, you've still written the essay. Colleges ask for essays not only for the content, but for the composition. If your child has been accepted based upon the essays that you've written (or even based partly upon the essays) than your child has been accepted on false pretenses.
It's not much of a stretch to go from this to hiring a "personal tutor/advisor". I'm not sure what their title is today, but when my sister's son was a junior in high school she paid in the upwards of $20,000 for this personal tutor to help get her son into a very good college. On the surface his job was to help navigate through the application process and assist in the selection of the school. In reality there is probably a better than even chance that he wrote, or heavily edited, the application essays. Aside from the fact that there is something inherently wrong with using a mercenary to get into the school of your choice, it puts the other students, those who can't afford this kind of thing or who chose to play it straight, at a disadvantage.
This all filters down to the student him/herself. Knowing that all this is going on it becomes very simple for the student to embelish or fabricate his/her extra curicular activities. Worse still, it becomes very simple for he or she to justify it. Resumes become three pages long filled with memberships in clubs whose meetings were never attended, skills that were never developed and activities that the student never participated in.
When our son Andrew was going through the process Liz and I attended some of the college meetings. We were shown a resume of a girl who had graduated a two years earlier. Her resume was thought to be the model resume. It was three pages long. It listed every meeting of every club she had ever attended, and under languages it said,"Fluent in English, Fleunt in Mandarin, Partially Fluent in Spanish." How can you be partially fluent in Spanish? Like being pregnant, either you are or you aren't. Still, the advisors thought it looked good (as did the student) so she listed it. By that standard, anyone who has ever taken a language in high school is partially fluent in it.
It is a wonder that the admission application process works at all.
It's no wonder that many schools are putting less weight on all of these things. The application process is very badly broken.
If you've written the essay for your child or grandchild, who exactly is it thats getting accepted to the school? Yet, it's becomes very easy to justify either with "everybody does it so why shouldn't I", or with "I'm just trying to help my child get ahead". Indeed, you are trying to help your child get ahead, but you are doing it fraudulently. If you've heavily edited the essay and rewritten the sentences using your words, phrases and grammar, in spite of the fact that you've been faithful to the intended meaning, you've still written the essay. Colleges ask for essays not only for the content, but for the composition. If your child has been accepted based upon the essays that you've written (or even based partly upon the essays) than your child has been accepted on false pretenses.
It's not much of a stretch to go from this to hiring a "personal tutor/advisor". I'm not sure what their title is today, but when my sister's son was a junior in high school she paid in the upwards of $20,000 for this personal tutor to help get her son into a very good college. On the surface his job was to help navigate through the application process and assist in the selection of the school. In reality there is probably a better than even chance that he wrote, or heavily edited, the application essays. Aside from the fact that there is something inherently wrong with using a mercenary to get into the school of your choice, it puts the other students, those who can't afford this kind of thing or who chose to play it straight, at a disadvantage.
This all filters down to the student him/herself. Knowing that all this is going on it becomes very simple for the student to embelish or fabricate his/her extra curicular activities. Worse still, it becomes very simple for he or she to justify it. Resumes become three pages long filled with memberships in clubs whose meetings were never attended, skills that were never developed and activities that the student never participated in.
When our son Andrew was going through the process Liz and I attended some of the college meetings. We were shown a resume of a girl who had graduated a two years earlier. Her resume was thought to be the model resume. It was three pages long. It listed every meeting of every club she had ever attended, and under languages it said,"Fluent in English, Fleunt in Mandarin, Partially Fluent in Spanish." How can you be partially fluent in Spanish? Like being pregnant, either you are or you aren't. Still, the advisors thought it looked good (as did the student) so she listed it. By that standard, anyone who has ever taken a language in high school is partially fluent in it.
It is a wonder that the admission application process works at all.
It's no wonder that many schools are putting less weight on all of these things. The application process is very badly broken.
09-01-2009, 06:11 PM
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^^ I'll take that criticism. People who bare their souls and/or tell it how it is/was always open themselves up for it. I don't think "proud" describes the event well. Most likely he did not even need any help from me anyhow. Perhaps I overcompensated because my father certainly wasn't there for me, way back when. I still thinks it's too important to leave it totally to the discretion of an 18 year old, especially when you're paying most of the bills.
After you've read piles of embellished, computer generated resumes and interview a couple of hundred bull-shitting, devoid of original thought job candidates let me know, and I'll be glad to share more of my human failings.
After you've read piles of embellished, computer generated resumes and interview a couple of hundred bull-shitting, devoid of original thought job candidates let me know, and I'll be glad to share more of my human failings.
09-01-2009, 06:21 PM
#28
John,
I didn't aim my comments at you, and I certainly didn't mean for you to take them personally. Yes, I think it's wrong to write the essay for someone else, but I do understand why people do it.
In any event, if I've offended you, I apologize.
I didn't aim my comments at you, and I certainly didn't mean for you to take them personally. Yes, I think it's wrong to write the essay for someone else, but I do understand why people do it.
In any event, if I've offended you, I apologize.
09-01-2009, 07:39 PM
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No need, Rob, the post actually was directed at the previous post. Anyhow, I don't asily take things personally. I'm glad you're posting and positively adding to the discussion.
09-01-2009, 07:55 PM
#30
[QUOTE=RC - Ryder,Sep 1 2009, 10:39 PM] No need, Rob, the post actually was directed at the previous post.