Climate Change Update
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 7,401
Likes: 1,104
From: Napa
The issue with plastic bags is (IMHO) the blowaway effect and litter. I used to see multiple bags stuck on bushes and trees every day when I had a 10 mile drive to the office. I'm glad that many cities and maybe states are banning them. We've been using market bags for years for grocery shopping.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,377
Likes: 2,616
From: Long Beach, MS
Fair point. But litter, like "the poor" will always be with us. I see far more fast food debris on the side of the road than plastic shopping bags. And I would oppose any move to ban plastic shopping bags as it deprives me of my ability to choose what is in fact a more environmentally friendly alternative to paper or cotton.
https://cascade.uoregon.edu/fall2012...xpert-article/
But I recognize that not everyone disposes of their plastic shopping bags responsibly. So they are quite a incense and do contribute to marine pollution.
https://cascade.uoregon.edu/fall2012...xpert-article/
But I recognize that not everyone disposes of their plastic shopping bags responsibly. So they are quite a incense and do contribute to marine pollution.
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 2,867
Likes: 466
Dave: The patch isn't a floating island of plastic as many picture it. It is an area where debris is more concentrated than in other parts of the Pacific. Picture an area 250 acres in size (about 1 sq kilometer) with a thousand bits of trash scattered over it. Size of the patch is the big problem retrieving all that trash. Since there is no commercially viable way to collect and recycle all that plastic, it is up to government bodies to tackle the problem. No comment on the likelihood of that happening, at Bill's request. (BTW, there is a patch in the Atlantic, too. But it doesn't get much publicity.)
TsukubaCody: Drinking straws actually get a bad rap. (No pun intended.) They are a tiny component of America's trash. I very much like straws in my iced drinks. We could all switch to paper straws but they aren't exactly carbon neutral either. Just biodegradable. But here's why I mention drinking straws to begin with. When something like drinking straws get falsely tagged as a major environmental problem, popular commercial and social media hype solutions and governmental bodies respond with solutions that seem reasonable (like banning plastic straws) but that don't do much to address the actual problem. Meanwhile more effective (if less popular) steps that could significantly help address global climate change get overlooked by the general public and by our regulatory and legislative bodies.
Common knowledge in this subject area can be very misleading. For example, plastic bags at the grocery store actually have a smaller carbon footprint than paper or reusable cloth and contribute less to land fill utilization. Also when we put plastic in land fills we are actually sequestering carbon which offsets a bit of that vast amount of carbon we are introducing into the atmosphere. If changes in our behavior are to have a positive effect on the environment, particularly on atmospheric CO2 levels the first step should be sound research (much of which has already been done) followed by public education so people know what helps and what doesn't.
One thing is clear: The less energy you use, the better, if that energy is coming from burning fossil fuels. Walking does less harm than driving. That is unless you drive an electric and get your power from nuclear, solar, hydro, or wind.
Who remembers when our biggest pollution worries were smog and acid rain?
TsukubaCody: Drinking straws actually get a bad rap. (No pun intended.) They are a tiny component of America's trash. I very much like straws in my iced drinks. We could all switch to paper straws but they aren't exactly carbon neutral either. Just biodegradable. But here's why I mention drinking straws to begin with. When something like drinking straws get falsely tagged as a major environmental problem, popular commercial and social media hype solutions and governmental bodies respond with solutions that seem reasonable (like banning plastic straws) but that don't do much to address the actual problem. Meanwhile more effective (if less popular) steps that could significantly help address global climate change get overlooked by the general public and by our regulatory and legislative bodies.
Common knowledge in this subject area can be very misleading. For example, plastic bags at the grocery store actually have a smaller carbon footprint than paper or reusable cloth and contribute less to land fill utilization. Also when we put plastic in land fills we are actually sequestering carbon which offsets a bit of that vast amount of carbon we are introducing into the atmosphere. If changes in our behavior are to have a positive effect on the environment, particularly on atmospheric CO2 levels the first step should be sound research (much of which has already been done) followed by public education so people know what helps and what doesn't.
One thing is clear: The less energy you use, the better, if that energy is coming from burning fossil fuels. Walking does less harm than driving. That is unless you drive an electric and get your power from nuclear, solar, hydro, or wind.
Who remembers when our biggest pollution worries were smog and acid rain?
Also, walking is always going to be much cleaner than driving, regardless of power source. A car is still going to use mad resources, whether directly or indirectly. (Tires, brakes, suspension, etc.)
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 34,130
Likes: 126
From: Canton, MA
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 37,468
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From: bolton
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,246
Likes: 1,570
From: Somewhere in NJ
I'm all over the place here. If this gets political, delete what's necessary.
I think it starts with individuals. It starts with communities/local government. I think it starts with industry. I think it starts with the national government. I think it starts with the global population.
I recycle what I can. I try my best. I don't catch everything, but make a conscious effort. I also don't think twice about taking the S for a drive. I'm one dot of 350 Million of 7.5 Billion on the chart. I hate lights on in the house that aren't necessary. I do like the air/heat at reasonable comfort levels. I think, but don't worry on a daily basis.
In my town, the street lights all have 3'x4' solar panels attached to them. I'll assume that the lights are at least neutral, and perhaps, a positive over time for energy consumption. I'm hoping that the residents see this and its a constant reminder to 'do something'.
To Dave's point about glass recycling and profit... I'll tie that into a a comment I made a few months ago in another thread, where,... I asked if corporations would be better off earning a little less profit for the shareholders in order to advance the greater good of the population.
I also recall a 60 Minutes episode maybe a year ago where the lobbyists for the Utility companies successfully (however you interpret that word) got the state to rule that " Utilities are the only entities that can legally sell electricity in Florida. " A ruling in April 2018 recently declared that leasing solar panels was not selling electricity. The ruling is expected to have a large impact in Florida where residential solar panels are now an option for consumers. Frankly, I'm shocked that sun states across the country don't mandate new homes have some sort of solar capabilities. It would drive innovation, lower cost, likely create jobs and reduce fossil fuel needs for residential needs. I do work in an industry with a lot of lobbying power - it bugs me to no end when I hear stories about the power of industry lobbyists.
I think it starts with individuals. It starts with communities/local government. I think it starts with industry. I think it starts with the national government. I think it starts with the global population.
I recycle what I can. I try my best. I don't catch everything, but make a conscious effort. I also don't think twice about taking the S for a drive. I'm one dot of 350 Million of 7.5 Billion on the chart. I hate lights on in the house that aren't necessary. I do like the air/heat at reasonable comfort levels. I think, but don't worry on a daily basis.
In my town, the street lights all have 3'x4' solar panels attached to them. I'll assume that the lights are at least neutral, and perhaps, a positive over time for energy consumption. I'm hoping that the residents see this and its a constant reminder to 'do something'.
To Dave's point about glass recycling and profit... I'll tie that into a a comment I made a few months ago in another thread, where,... I asked if corporations would be better off earning a little less profit for the shareholders in order to advance the greater good of the population.
I also recall a 60 Minutes episode maybe a year ago where the lobbyists for the Utility companies successfully (however you interpret that word) got the state to rule that " Utilities are the only entities that can legally sell electricity in Florida. " A ruling in April 2018 recently declared that leasing solar panels was not selling electricity. The ruling is expected to have a large impact in Florida where residential solar panels are now an option for consumers. Frankly, I'm shocked that sun states across the country don't mandate new homes have some sort of solar capabilities. It would drive innovation, lower cost, likely create jobs and reduce fossil fuel needs for residential needs. I do work in an industry with a lot of lobbying power - it bugs me to no end when I hear stories about the power of industry lobbyists.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 34,130
Likes: 126
From: Canton, MA
I find this discussion interesting and somewhat discouraging.
First of all, recycling. Really? Do you think that will help with global warming? I don't see how. Electricity and transportation are the big drivers and reprocessing existing materials into something else still requires energy. This morning I heard that the bottom is falling out of the recycling industry as the worlds biggest customer, China, announced that it will only accept recycled materials for processing that are over 99% pure. The US single stream method yields materials that are only 97% pure.
China sparks trash backlash | Boston Herald
This is not some recent backlash against tariffs. China cracked down on out of country recycled materials many months ago and it is directed at all countries, not just the US.
Second, the blame game. Everyone seems to think it is someone else's problem. Industry, government, businesses... I think it is absolutely us. I'm a big offender. Probably bigger than most if not all of you. But the individual is the biggest source and the manufacturers and businesses are only contributing to the problem in order to bring products and services to us.
Third, some of you point our that the individuals (us and the rest of the world) are not likely to change their behavior. I agree. They won't.
My prediction is doom.
First of all, recycling. Really? Do you think that will help with global warming? I don't see how. Electricity and transportation are the big drivers and reprocessing existing materials into something else still requires energy. This morning I heard that the bottom is falling out of the recycling industry as the worlds biggest customer, China, announced that it will only accept recycled materials for processing that are over 99% pure. The US single stream method yields materials that are only 97% pure.
China sparks trash backlash | Boston Herald
This is not some recent backlash against tariffs. China cracked down on out of country recycled materials many months ago and it is directed at all countries, not just the US.
Second, the blame game. Everyone seems to think it is someone else's problem. Industry, government, businesses... I think it is absolutely us. I'm a big offender. Probably bigger than most if not all of you. But the individual is the biggest source and the manufacturers and businesses are only contributing to the problem in order to bring products and services to us.
Third, some of you point our that the individuals (us and the rest of the world) are not likely to change their behavior. I agree. They won't.
My prediction is doom.