Duty?
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 10,478
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Zippy,Jun 27 2005, 08:40 AM
As for Iraq, my blood pressure is much better if I leave this out of my discussions, but I will pose one question to the younger folks on the board (pre-Viet Nam era).
Have you served in the military? If not, is it possible to discuss duty with respect to the military, if you have not been a part of it?
Have you served in the military? If not, is it possible to discuss duty with respect to the military, if you have not been a part of it?
I think folks who have never served can discuss military duty in the abstract like any other subject. But nothing offers more points of reference and adds to the depth of the discussion like direct experience.
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,897
Likes: 1
From: Cherry Hill, NJ
For me, it's a trust issue.
Does the government trust the people? No.
Do I trust the government? No.
Therefore, do I trust that I'm doing the right thing just because the government says so? No.
I'm sure the German soldiers who herded the Jews off to concentration camps believed they were making the world a better place, and probably the US troops at Gitmo think we're better off now that all those people are locked up.
History proved the Germans wrong. Actually, common sense proved them wrong even in the '30s, but once the politicians stir up the (easily swayed segment) of the population, it's easy to maintain momentum.
Will history prove the US wrong? Depends on who's writing it, as with all history.
It still cracks me up that we're supposedly fighting for democracy in Iraq, but we seem dead set on stamping out democracy in the US.
Does the government trust the people? No.
Do I trust the government? No.
Therefore, do I trust that I'm doing the right thing just because the government says so? No.
I'm sure the German soldiers who herded the Jews off to concentration camps believed they were making the world a better place, and probably the US troops at Gitmo think we're better off now that all those people are locked up.
History proved the Germans wrong. Actually, common sense proved them wrong even in the '30s, but once the politicians stir up the (easily swayed segment) of the population, it's easy to maintain momentum.
Will history prove the US wrong? Depends on who's writing it, as with all history.
It still cracks me up that we're supposedly fighting for democracy in Iraq, but we seem dead set on stamping out democracy in the US.
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,771
Likes: 0
From: Houston, TX
Originally Posted by dean,Jun 28 2005, 08:38 AM
As a Nam vet who's BTDT, I can tell that you're wrong. It's very easy to separate the actions of our military personnel from the clique ultimately responsible for the war. One group acts out of a sense of duty and honor, while the other group...
Dean (Aren't ellipses wonderful things)
Dean (Aren't ellipses wonderful things)
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 10,478
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Ulrich,Jun 28 2005, 12:23 PM
I think you're both saying the same thing -- at least that's how I read his statement.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 9,579
Likes: 157
From: West Deptford NJ
Originally Posted by dean,Jun 28 2005, 08:59 AM
I think you meant 'post Viet Nam era'. I'm pre Viet Nam era, and I'm certainly not one of the younger folks.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
From: SoCal
Diamond Dave
If you think this is true, then limiting government intrusion must be at the top of your "to do" list.
[QUOTE] It still cracks me up that we're supposedly fighting for democracy in Iraq, but we seem dead set on stamping out democracy in the US.
Does the government trust the people? No.
[QUOTE] It still cracks me up that we're supposedly fighting for democracy in Iraq, but we seem dead set on stamping out democracy in the US.
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,897
Likes: 1
From: Cherry Hill, NJ
Originally Posted by cordycord,Jun 28 2005, 03:09 PM
Diamond Dave
If you think this is true, then limiting government intrusion must be at the top of your "to do" list.
We're fighting for several things, including a more stable Middle East. Let's face it, the 'benevolent neglect' we've shown the Middle East over the decades has come back to bite us in the ass.
As for Democracy here, I'd say that this week it is the Supreme Court who is doing the best job of limiting our liberty.
If you think this is true, then limiting government intrusion must be at the top of your "to do" list.
We're fighting for several things, including a more stable Middle East. Let's face it, the 'benevolent neglect' we've shown the Middle East over the decades has come back to bite us in the ass.
As for Democracy here, I'd say that this week it is the Supreme Court who is doing the best job of limiting our liberty.
Reading Robert A. Heinlein books at an impressionable age has ruined me for life. I'll never be a happy Demopublican or Republicrat.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,211
Likes: 135
From: Euclid, OH
Originally Posted by DiamondDave2005,Jun 28 2005, 04:18 PM
Reading Robert A. Heinlein books at an impressionable age has ruined me for life. I'll never be a happy Demopublican or Republicrat.
JonasM
Registered User
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 10,478
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by cordycord,Jun 28 2005, 05:33 PM
QUOTE (cordycord @ Jun 25 2005, 04:55 PM)
I also think that one can not agree with the war and yet support the troops.
Dean,
I'm going to disagree with your disagreement.
I think that there were/are quite a number of people who didn't want to go into Iraq. However, now that we're there, they feel that the job needs to be finished and the troops need to be supported.
Referencing Viet Nam, we don't want to see our troops spit on in airports. We certainly don't want to pull out, only to see Iraq's version of Pol Pot's killing fields take place either.
I also think that one can not agree with the war and yet support the troops.
Dean,
I'm going to disagree with your disagreement.
I think that there were/are quite a number of people who didn't want to go into Iraq. However, now that we're there, they feel that the job needs to be finished and the troops need to be supported.Referencing Viet Nam, we don't want to see our troops spit on in airports. We certainly don't want to pull out, only to see Iraq's version of Pol Pot's killing fields take place either.
I don't see a repeat of history in the public's treatment of returning troops, at least I hope not. I'm getting too old to end up in jail again.