I agree with you rc.

I think ethics was derived from tribal jealousies and evolved from pack instinct .

I think morals evolved from tribal ethic. Religion was probably first to use morality to reinforce tribal ethic as packs or tribes merged as humans progressed.

fltsfshr

 

[QUOTE=RC - Ryder,Jul 15 2009, 09:05 AM] Mike:

 

Are 'morals' enforced by the group, or internally? Are they created by the group, or internally?

 

yes I think morals evolved from peer pressure and group interactions within a tribal ethic. Morals may have come from several tribes or packs interacting.

For example
A tribal ethic could be "I don't eat members of my tribe"
A moral could be "I shouldn't eat members of that tribe"
Once you have morality, you need enforcement. There begins the tale of man.

fltsfshr

 

I think it would be hard to say one way or the other. When was the rise of religion? When did morality evolve? Certainly both happened before written history. Both may have happened before we were fully human.

I find it interesting just how quickly morals can change. My great grandfather would have thought it was immoral for a man to court a woman without a chaperon. Now we would consider that quaint. He had no qualms about killing native Americans to get their land. Today we would be boycotting a country that would allow such a thing.

Even things that are "universal" across time and cultures have lots of gray areas. I doubt there have been many human cultures that didn't frown upon murder. But the definitions of what constitutes murder can be very different.

 

Ditto for all the grey areas.

Mike: You were a former Catholic. Since essential aspects of morality are imprinted during critical years - around 9-12, I would find it incredulous that your basic concepts of morality did not evolve from your and your family's religious experience. Obviously you have refined and/or redefined yours since. No criticism here - to each their own.

Didn't we some time a decade ago reach the mark where all humans alive at that time finally exceeded all the humans that have lived and died before? Of that number of people who once have lived and live now, probably greater than 99% at one time or another have believed in god(s), supreme being(s), a higher power, or a force greater than themselves. As such, is it not plausible or does it not support that religion, worship, or whatever you want to call it has been the driving force for the evolution of morality, mores, morals. I believe that conventional wisdom on the subject supports my point. Frankly, I don't care. I think it's useful discussion; I'm always ready to learn; I'm interested in other peopl's viewpoints; I'm not interested in changing minds. I enjoy philosophical discussions, and I don't much mind being wrong at times.

 

So, Ryder, when you say "religion," do you mean christianity or all religions?

 

A man with morals and ethics may still kick his cat every night in the privacy of his home. There is a personal component that is more important that the religious/tribe aspect, IMO.

The age-old circular argument is why is a person following a moral/ethical standard? Is it that they think someone is looking (tribe? God?) and will be rewarded, or simply as a selfless, good act? A skeptic would say the question can be answered, but never proven.

 

How politeness evolved.

probably a relevant topic at this point.

 

Hey Neutered. As a still searching agnostic, I consider christianity to be one of the major religions shared by a minority of humans on this planet. Nothing more.