Honda's mojo
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From: Marysville, AKA Hondaland
Originally Posted by dlq04,Dec 9 2010, 11:54 PM
Here is a quote by Peter M. De Lorenzo that sums it up better than I ever could "It’s no secret that the Acura brand here in the U.S. has seen fleeting moments of glory over the years punctuated by long periods of abject mediocrity. Acura has been about high performance at times – with its NSX sports car showcasing Honda Motor Co.’s engineering philosophy perfectly – but more often than not the company has sleepwalked through model year after model year while waffling between who they want to be and where they want to go, never quite figuring it out and leaving their dealers in the lurch."
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From: Albany, UPSTATE NY
Originally Posted by Mchester,Dec 10 2010, 12:27 AM
I'll let you in on a little secret. Many Honda associates would really rather Acura never existed at all. Why couldn't the Honda brand sell an $80k sports car in North America? It does so in other parts of the world without requiring Acura to be the face that allows such high cost/value transactions for what IS a Honda at its heart and in its soul. I'm afraid the dream for what Acura was to be, just never quite gelled, and now American Honda is left to attempt to fix it. It's kind of like trying to fix a cake that has fallen in the middle. You can fill the gap with icing, but the cake just is never quite what it should have been. Oh well, I MUST be getting tired...
Isn't Acura only sold in the US & Chinese markets?
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From: Montgomery, NY
Most of the world knows the Acura lineup as Honda... look at NSX pics from other countries - many have a "H" on the hood.
The people spending big bux on cars in 86 still remembered Honda from the 70s as a cheap little crap car and would never consider spending $50K (then) on one... not to mention the politics of where they were made.
The perception of people able to spend $80K (now) on a car is probably somewhat different... who knows. Both Toyota and Nissan seemed to feel Honda was on to something though, when they came out with Lexus and Infiniti lines.
I'm sad for Acura, there is not one single model I would buy until they change that FUGLY front grille.
The people spending big bux on cars in 86 still remembered Honda from the 70s as a cheap little crap car and would never consider spending $50K (then) on one... not to mention the politics of where they were made.
The perception of people able to spend $80K (now) on a car is probably somewhat different... who knows. Both Toyota and Nissan seemed to feel Honda was on to something though, when they came out with Lexus and Infiniti lines.
I'm sad for Acura, there is not one single model I would buy until they change that FUGLY front grille.
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From: Albany, UPSTATE NY
Originally Posted by Mchester,Dec 10 2010, 12:19 AM
I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings. Even though nobody here seems to give damn about mine. It's OK that everybody beat me up as if I am Honda, and I single handedly destroyed thier dreams of owning a minty new NSX some day. Well, you missed an obvious point and I called you on it. Get over it...
And who said Honda was so cock sure they were going to whip the "newcomers" that, as you so aptly point out, aren't at all new to high level, open wheel racing? You said that, I did not.
As far as the NASCAR/NHRA comment, it was a JOKE, jeesh... Everybody else here gets to make thier snide little cracks but if I do, look out, the Honda guy's gett'in fresh. Let's slap him down a notch.
And I know I am in the minority, but I actually do follow almost all of the races/series I listed, that's how I know Honda's involvement. It's not as if Honda management forces us to memorize a freak'in list. And I also watch NASCAR, NHRA, and Sprint cars too. There doesn't have to be a Honda in the race for me to be interested. If it's got a motor, I'm into it.
At the 2010 Runoffs, a friend of mine, Lee Niffenegger, finished 2nd in his SSB Civic SI and the highest MX5 was 9th I believe, behind 4 other Civic SI's. In SSC, an Integra finished 2nd ahead of all the Mazda 3s. Another friend of mine, Chad Gilsinger, ran off with T3 ahead of the Nissans and Mazdas. In STU, a TSX won over half a dozen Miatas. In GTL acouple of CRXs finished 1-2 and ahead of several Miatas. In what class do you consider the Miata superior to the Civic SI, Spec Miata? I'd have to agree, they swept that one.
What am I missing? I know there are a lot of Miatas out there, and they make great race cars in thier own rite, but they don't run all over the Hondas as far as I can see.
I think Hondas aquit themselves pretty darn well in SCCA.
Oh, look at that, had one round left. OK, Now I'm out of ammo.
And who said Honda was so cock sure they were going to whip the "newcomers" that, as you so aptly point out, aren't at all new to high level, open wheel racing? You said that, I did not.
As far as the NASCAR/NHRA comment, it was a JOKE, jeesh... Everybody else here gets to make thier snide little cracks but if I do, look out, the Honda guy's gett'in fresh. Let's slap him down a notch.
And I know I am in the minority, but I actually do follow almost all of the races/series I listed, that's how I know Honda's involvement. It's not as if Honda management forces us to memorize a freak'in list. And I also watch NASCAR, NHRA, and Sprint cars too. There doesn't have to be a Honda in the race for me to be interested. If it's got a motor, I'm into it.
At the 2010 Runoffs, a friend of mine, Lee Niffenegger, finished 2nd in his SSB Civic SI and the highest MX5 was 9th I believe, behind 4 other Civic SI's. In SSC, an Integra finished 2nd ahead of all the Mazda 3s. Another friend of mine, Chad Gilsinger, ran off with T3 ahead of the Nissans and Mazdas. In STU, a TSX won over half a dozen Miatas. In GTL acouple of CRXs finished 1-2 and ahead of several Miatas. In what class do you consider the Miata superior to the Civic SI, Spec Miata? I'd have to agree, they swept that one.
What am I missing? I know there are a lot of Miatas out there, and they make great race cars in thier own rite, but they don't run all over the Hondas as far as I can see.I think Hondas aquit themselves pretty darn well in SCCA.
Oh, look at that, had one round left. OK, Now I'm out of ammo.
This is the Vintage forum and a very mature forum group at that. A discussion like this elsewhere would not have as many eloquent replies nor would people elsewhere refrain from attacking you personally.
Most of the people on here have been long-time Honda customers and I think you must recognize where they are coming from.
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From: Albany, UPSTATE NY
Originally Posted by ralper,Dec 9 2010, 07:31 PM
I hope they launch the Si at the same time as the next gen Civic, and they just might. The Si has sort of become a regular model in the lineup. I'm just not sure that the next gen Civic will be out by next June.
I sense Honda (American) in their infinite wisdom (i hope im very wrong) will just relase the new Si with a turbo'd 200 HP engine. It will again be like it was when we had the EP3 hatch - a moderate seller, and a success by no means.
Here is what AM Honda should do. Move the Si badge to the CR-Z and give it 200 romping HP, end the Si for the Civic coupe & sedan for a few years. This will make the Si a coveted car in the used market.
As the CR-Z Si reaches or passes a MMC refresh, announce an Si for the Civic and have it compete with the likes of the Mazda3 and WRX. Engineer handling the way it it right now with neutral characteristics, and yet again have another sales success.
Of course that would only happen if someone insane and/or visionary called the shots.
Here is what AM Honda should do. Move the Si badge to the CR-Z and give it 200 romping HP, end the Si for the Civic coupe & sedan for a few years. This will make the Si a coveted car in the used market.
As the CR-Z Si reaches or passes a MMC refresh, announce an Si for the Civic and have it compete with the likes of the Mazda3 and WRX. Engineer handling the way it it right now with neutral characteristics, and yet again have another sales success.
Of course that would only happen if someone insane and/or visionary called the shots.
Former Moderator
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Albany, UPSTATE NY
Originally Posted by Mchester,Dec 10 2010, 12:19 AM
I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings. Even though nobody here seems to give damn about mine. It's OK that everybody beat me up as if I am Honda, and I single handedly destroyed thier dreams of owning a minty new NSX some day. Well, you missed an obvious point and I called you on it. Get over it...
And who said Honda was so cock sure they were going to whip the "newcomers" that, as you so aptly point out, aren't at all new to high level, open wheel racing? You said that, I did not.
As far as the NASCAR/NHRA comment, it was a JOKE, jeesh... Everybody else here gets to make thier snide little cracks but if I do, look out, the Honda guy's gett'in fresh. Let's slap him down a notch.
And I know I am in the minority, but I actually do follow almost all of the races/series I listed, that's how I know Honda's involvement. It's not as if Honda management forces us to memorize a freak'in list. And I also watch NASCAR, NHRA, and Sprint cars too. There doesn't have to be a Honda in the race for me to be interested. If it's got a motor, I'm into it.
At the 2010 Runoffs, a friend of mine, Lee Niffenegger, finished 2nd in his SSB Civic SI and the highest MX5 was 9th I believe, behind 4 other Civic SI's. In SSC, an Integra finished 2nd ahead of all the Mazda 3s. Another friend of mine, Chad Gilsinger, ran off with T3 ahead of the Nissans and Mazdas. In STU, a TSX won over half a dozen Miatas. In GTL acouple of CRXs finished 1-2 and ahead of several Miatas. In what class do you consider the Miata superior to the Civic SI, Spec Miata? I'd have to agree, they swept that one. What am I missing? I know there are a lot of Miatas out there, and they make great race cars in thier own rite, but they don't run all over the Hondas as far as I can see.
I think Hondas aquit themselves pretty darn well in SCCA.
Oh, look at that, had one round left. OK, Now I'm out of ammo.
And who said Honda was so cock sure they were going to whip the "newcomers" that, as you so aptly point out, aren't at all new to high level, open wheel racing? You said that, I did not.
As far as the NASCAR/NHRA comment, it was a JOKE, jeesh... Everybody else here gets to make thier snide little cracks but if I do, look out, the Honda guy's gett'in fresh. Let's slap him down a notch.
And I know I am in the minority, but I actually do follow almost all of the races/series I listed, that's how I know Honda's involvement. It's not as if Honda management forces us to memorize a freak'in list. And I also watch NASCAR, NHRA, and Sprint cars too. There doesn't have to be a Honda in the race for me to be interested. If it's got a motor, I'm into it.
At the 2010 Runoffs, a friend of mine, Lee Niffenegger, finished 2nd in his SSB Civic SI and the highest MX5 was 9th I believe, behind 4 other Civic SI's. In SSC, an Integra finished 2nd ahead of all the Mazda 3s. Another friend of mine, Chad Gilsinger, ran off with T3 ahead of the Nissans and Mazdas. In STU, a TSX won over half a dozen Miatas. In GTL acouple of CRXs finished 1-2 and ahead of several Miatas. In what class do you consider the Miata superior to the Civic SI, Spec Miata? I'd have to agree, they swept that one.
What am I missing? I know there are a lot of Miatas out there, and they make great race cars in thier own rite, but they don't run all over the Hondas as far as I can see.I think Hondas aquit themselves pretty darn well in SCCA.
Oh, look at that, had one round left. OK, Now I'm out of ammo.
That team is the reason why I diligently try and keep up with the Continental Tire Challenge Series. Too bad the races are never broadcast live and not all the races have TV coverage.
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From: On yo puter screen
Originally Posted by Mchester,Dec 10 2010, 12:27 AM
It's kind of like trying to fix a cake that has fallen in the middle. You can fill the gap with icing, but the cake just is never quite what it should have been.
Dont get me wrong, in some ways
with you Honda is a great company. But the current problem is they are not offering "The guys in this forum" anything we currently want to purchase.
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From: Mish-she-gan
Originally Posted by Mchester,Dec 10 2010, 12:19 AM
I'm so sorry I hurt your feelings.
And as far as missing the point, well you missed it.
My inclussion of Miata was directed at "Corporate" support for a "racing series". It was not directed at how a few Miata's competed against a few Honda's. American Honda had a great opportunity to create a race series with the S2000 since it certainly could not compete against the cars it was up against when it entered the SCCA road racing Touring Class. Because the 240 hp S2000 was virtually peerless it was forced to run in the same class as big displacement V-8 Camaros and Mustangs with 320+ hp, as well as Boxsters that cost twice as much. They didn't allow any of the aero stuff on the S2000 such as front spoiler, side strakes or rear deck spoiler; however they allowed the Porsche to run a real wing on the back! The 500 pound or so weight advantage was not enough except at the smaller tracks where handling beats hp. Since American Honda thought enough to include an SCCA entry form with my purchase I foolishly believed they thought the car worthy of road racing but they did nothing to support it!
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From: West Henrietta UPSTATE NY
Originally Posted by Mchester,Dec 10 2010, 12:27 AM
I'll let you in on a little secret. Many Honda associates would really rather Acura never existed at all. Why couldn't the Honda brand sell an $80k sports car in North America? It does so in other parts of the world without requiring Acura to be the face that allows such high cost/value transactions for what IS a Honda at its heart and in its soul. I'm afraid the dream for what Acura was to be, just never quite gelled, and now American Honda is left to attempt to fix it. It's kind of like trying to fix a cake that has fallen in the middle. You can fill the gap with icing, but the cake just is never quite what it should have been. Oh well, I MUST be getting tired...
Honestly, I think there is a place for Acura based upon how successful Infiniti and Lexus has turned out, but the mountain Acura has to scale is products that don't look good, and that's a tough hill to climb.
BTW- saw this a few nights ago and just giggled. Beautiful Integra Hatchback, amazing condition, a college student going to RIT or U of R I'm sure because of the Georgia plate, crying shame to see such a beauty running in the snow and salt, but anyways, the owner has removed all the Acura badges, and had replaced them with Honda ones, it struck my funny bone