S2000 Vintage Owners Knowledge, age and life experiences represent the members of the Vintage Owners

Insects and evolution

Thread Tools
 
Old Nov 29, 2005 | 05:37 PM
  #11  
dean's Avatar
Registered User
Member (Premium)
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 10,478
Likes: 0
Default

Originally Posted by ralper,Nov 29 2005, 10:35 PM
Actually, I'd prefer a big T-bone. I'm kind of hungry tonight. (Don't forget the baked potato).
Should I hold the sour cream?
Reply
Old Nov 29, 2005 | 05:42 PM
  #12  
ralper's Avatar
Thread Starter
Gold Member (Premium)
20 Year Member
Community Builder
Liked
Loved
 
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 33,168
Likes: 1,639
From: Randolph, NJ
Default

Sure, but don't forget the mixed vegetables.
Reply
Old Nov 29, 2005 | 07:30 PM
  #13  
Matt_in_VA's Avatar
20 Year Member
Photoriffic
Community Builder
Community Influencer
 
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,904
Likes: 765
From: Clifton, VA
Default

[QUOTE=matt_inva,Nov 29 2005, 09:55 PM] Geez Dean,

Right about now, I would be willing to bet that Rob feels like you drove a steak through his heart!
Reply
Old Nov 30, 2005 | 07:51 AM
  #14  
WhiteS2k's Avatar
Registered User
20 Year Member
 
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 3,827
Likes: 0
From: Bay Area
Default

Originally Posted by dean,Nov 29 2005, 06:28 PM
there are two basic hypotheses proposed

1. Wings evolved from extensions of the gills of the aquatic ancestors of insects.

2. Wings evolved from the formation of extensions of the body/exoskeleton.

The gill hypothesis is much more probable and ... also better supported by genetic evidence and is widely accepted among mainstream bugologists.
Thanks for the answer. It is hard for me to imagine how wings can evolve from gills, which serve completely different purposes. I would have thought the "extensions of the exoskeleton" theory would be more acceptable. But then what do I know.
Reply
Old Nov 30, 2005 | 09:18 AM
  #15  
dean's Avatar
Registered User
Member (Premium)
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 10,478
Likes: 0
Default

Originally Posted by WhiteS2k,Nov 30 2005, 12:51 PM
Thanks for the answer. It is hard for me to imagine how wings can evolve from gills, which serve completely different purposes. I would have thought the "extensions of the exoskeleton" theory would be more acceptable. But then what do I know.
Well, that's basically how evolution works - new structures from old - and in many cases those new structures have completely serve completely different functions and appear entirely different than the originals. As I mentioned before your jaw was originally a gill arch, as was your hyoid bone and the bones that comprise your inner ear.
The problem with imagining how that all came about is that humans think in a linear fashion, whereas evolution doesn't function linearly.
Reply
Old Dec 2, 2005 | 06:47 AM
  #16  
raymo19's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 12,471
Likes: 0
From: Flintstone GA
Default

[QUOTE]We can't have that now. Punctuated equilibrium vs. neo Darwinistic gradualism: which is it? The Modern Synthesis: boon or bane? Feel free to Google the night away.
Reply
Old Dec 2, 2005 | 07:03 AM
  #17  
fltsfshr's Avatar
Gold Member (Premium)
20 Year Member
Liked
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,868
Likes: 1,058
Default

prey




fltsfshr
Reply
Old Dec 2, 2005 | 07:47 AM
  #18  
dean's Avatar
Registered User
Member (Premium)
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 10,478
Likes: 0
Default

Sorry it took so long to get back to you on this one. Working and correspondence school is hard!


I don't think Gould and Eldredge are promoting anything radically new; punctuated equilibrium seems like one of a number (some as yet unknown) of mechanisms involved in evolution.
Good answer, I can see that you did your homework.

The Modern Synthesis, definitely boon. After Mendel, how could genetics not be incorporated into a workable evolutionary theory?
Also correct.

Darwin's total rejection of Mendel's work I find one of the great ironies along the path to current theory.
Darwin was wrong about a number of things. Most of his mistakes were caused by the lack of knowledge of during his day. The fundamental ideas behind his discoveries still hold true, however.

If mutation is by definition an error (failed replication), does that imply that all of evolution is a process of degeneration?
There you go getting all linear on me. Evolution only appears to be linear in hindsight. Mutations are random events, so the term degeneration doesn't apply, as mutations don't move in any particular direction. Most mutations are either directly or indirectly fatal, but in relatively rare instances a mutation will provide an organism with an advantage to survive within its environment. Those individuals will tend to be more successful at survival and reproduction, thereby passing on that trait to their offspring, who in turn will be better competitors. These "mutants", over time, will eventually out-compete and eliminate the "non mutant" individuals. That, in essence, is what is actually meant by the commonly misused phrase, "survival of the fittest".
One view, which is the one to which I subscribe, is the idea that the competition for survival occurs at the genetic level and those genotypes tend to build and improve upon their means of survival - the "machines" (phenotypes) - as those phenotypes are tested by their environments through natural selection. However, that isn't to say that the "losers" are degenerate or that the "winners" are gaining in complexity as they evolve. They're simply becoming better at staying in the game. For example, we humans are quite proud of our success as a species, but as a relative newcomer our success is nothing in comparison to the most successful species on the planet - the "lowly" bacteria.

I hope this has been at least a little clearer than mud.
Reply
Old Dec 2, 2005 | 07:52 AM
  #19  
dean's Avatar
Registered User
Member (Premium)
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 10,478
Likes: 0
Default

Back on topic, which do you think more likely flew first; predatory insects or prey?
I could make an argument for either. Which one do you want?
Reply
Old Dec 2, 2005 | 08:32 AM
  #20  
raymo19's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 12,471
Likes: 0
From: Flintstone GA
Default

Originally Posted by dean,Dec 2 2005, 12:52 PM
I could make an argument for either. Which one do you want?
Why not both? I love a good debate.
Reply



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:13 AM.