President Bush's new immigration policy.
01-07-2004, 05:18 PM
#1
Thread Starter
What do you think of President Bush's new immigration policy? Do you think legal status should be given to illegal immigrants who can prove that that have a job? Do you think the door should be open to anyone who can document that there is a job waiting?
Who wins? Who loses?
Who wins? Who loses?
01-07-2004, 05:50 PM
#3
here's my .02
Illegal farm workers in my state overburden our schools, our hospitals and our social services. A minimum wage here isn't a living wage.
We grow almost all the tomatos you eat in the winter here in S Fl.. Huge corporate farms, unacceptable migrant living conditions, kids who have nothing, not even shoes for school and all the rest of the problems exist all around me.
Every payday you see lines of people at money order windows sending what they do get to keep back home. 50 dollars from here goes far in a lot of 3rd world countries.
From a fiscal standpoint Bushes program is a wash. It doesn't solve any of the problems that low income migrant workers bring into a community. If anything, it removes more of their money via taxation or ssn. That just puts more burden on the local community services.
If you're going to let workers in on a permit program, the corporations who recruit them and bring them in should have certain worker benefit programs in place so the rest of us aren't still subsidizing them. This should include medical assistance, educational and language assistance etc. Also included in that pay plan should be a ticket home. All paid for, by the company that employed them.
And if it makes the cost of tomatos go up, thats ok. What's going on now isn't right for anybody.
I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think GW"s plan is going to make any difference.
One more thing..
Every year in my community the number of fatal car accidents involving uninsured untrained unlicensed illegal immigrants goes up. Thats not right either.
Illegal farm workers in my state overburden our schools, our hospitals and our social services. A minimum wage here isn't a living wage.
We grow almost all the tomatos you eat in the winter here in S Fl.. Huge corporate farms, unacceptable migrant living conditions, kids who have nothing, not even shoes for school and all the rest of the problems exist all around me.
Every payday you see lines of people at money order windows sending what they do get to keep back home. 50 dollars from here goes far in a lot of 3rd world countries.
From a fiscal standpoint Bushes program is a wash. It doesn't solve any of the problems that low income migrant workers bring into a community. If anything, it removes more of their money via taxation or ssn. That just puts more burden on the local community services.
If you're going to let workers in on a permit program, the corporations who recruit them and bring them in should have certain worker benefit programs in place so the rest of us aren't still subsidizing them. This should include medical assistance, educational and language assistance etc. Also included in that pay plan should be a ticket home. All paid for, by the company that employed them.
And if it makes the cost of tomatos go up, thats ok. What's going on now isn't right for anybody.
I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think GW"s plan is going to make any difference.
One more thing..
Every year in my community the number of fatal car accidents involving uninsured untrained unlicensed illegal immigrants goes up. Thats not right either.
01-08-2004, 03:30 PM
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I've actually thought that the President has done a pretty good job. However, I strongly disagree with this policy for a number of reasons. Before I go into some of my thoughts, I'd like to preface my comments with these facts. My Mom legally immigrated to this country with her parents. In addition, one of my Dad's parents immigrated legally to this country. I am familiar with the plight of the immigrant to this country and I appreciate all of the reasons why someone would want to be here. Finally, I am not against immigration. Not so long as it is done legally.
1) Why reward someone who has made the conscientious decision to break our laws? I know that many immigrants are simply trying to make better lives for themselves and their families and I know that it isn't easy to immigrate to the US. But neither of those reasons warrant someone breaking the law. Granted, this is a bad analogy, but I could simplify my financial position quite easily if I sold cocaine to the local high school kids. I give them what they want and I better my family's financial security. Is that the right decision? I don't think so.
2) If our borders already have more holes in it that a block of swiss cheese, why give additional incentive for more illegal immigrants? Didn't 9-11 teach us that we need to be more dilligent in monitoring who comes in and who leaves?
3) I have two good buddies that I used to work with who came to the US on student visa's 5 years ago while attending the Drucker School to get their MBA's. Both men are highly intelligent, extremely hard working, and as law abiding as they come. They've been working on getting their green cards (all the while working legally in the US and paying into Social Security, etc.) for years only to see things set back as rules changed, 9-11 happens, and some a-hole in the Laguna Beach office shreds a couple boxes of paperwork because that was easier than doing his job. These guys have busted their asses and done everything by the book and they still don't have their green cards completed. Meanwhile, Bush proposes to allow anyone who could afford a Coyote, and has a job picking grapes in Central CA more rights than these guys have. That isn't right.
4) If this isn't a blatant pander to gain Hispanic votes (a la Gray Out Davis' numb nutted move to give driver's licenses to illegals) than I don't know what it is. For someone who I thought was going to try and rise above that and "bring integrity back to the White House", I'm very disappointed in this move.
5) How does the US benefit from this move? I just don't see it. I've heard talk of being able to better track illegals but how many of the a-holes on those flights on 9-11 would have gone through with this as oppossed to simply staying underground? I could forsee additional monies being collected by the IRS and Social Security but at what cost?
I don't know... I could go on and on but I'm really flabbergasted with this announcement. Unless I'm missing something, I just think its a huge mistake.
1) Why reward someone who has made the conscientious decision to break our laws? I know that many immigrants are simply trying to make better lives for themselves and their families and I know that it isn't easy to immigrate to the US. But neither of those reasons warrant someone breaking the law. Granted, this is a bad analogy, but I could simplify my financial position quite easily if I sold cocaine to the local high school kids. I give them what they want and I better my family's financial security. Is that the right decision? I don't think so.
2) If our borders already have more holes in it that a block of swiss cheese, why give additional incentive for more illegal immigrants? Didn't 9-11 teach us that we need to be more dilligent in monitoring who comes in and who leaves?
3) I have two good buddies that I used to work with who came to the US on student visa's 5 years ago while attending the Drucker School to get their MBA's. Both men are highly intelligent, extremely hard working, and as law abiding as they come. They've been working on getting their green cards (all the while working legally in the US and paying into Social Security, etc.) for years only to see things set back as rules changed, 9-11 happens, and some a-hole in the Laguna Beach office shreds a couple boxes of paperwork because that was easier than doing his job. These guys have busted their asses and done everything by the book and they still don't have their green cards completed. Meanwhile, Bush proposes to allow anyone who could afford a Coyote, and has a job picking grapes in Central CA more rights than these guys have. That isn't right.
4) If this isn't a blatant pander to gain Hispanic votes (a la Gray Out Davis' numb nutted move to give driver's licenses to illegals) than I don't know what it is. For someone who I thought was going to try and rise above that and "bring integrity back to the White House", I'm very disappointed in this move.
5) How does the US benefit from this move? I just don't see it. I've heard talk of being able to better track illegals but how many of the a-holes on those flights on 9-11 would have gone through with this as oppossed to simply staying underground? I could forsee additional monies being collected by the IRS and Social Security but at what cost?
I don't know... I could go on and on but I'm really flabbergasted with this announcement. Unless I'm missing something, I just think its a huge mistake.
01-09-2004, 11:45 AM
#6
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Funny this topic comes up. Just today our office assistant, who is also a good friend, told us that she took her citizenship test yesterday. Sadly, she wasn't given the oath, so she's not yet a citizen.
It has taken over 3 years to get this far. It's been a paperwork nightmare. She came here from Germany 30 years ago to marry her husband and they've been married ever since. They have raised a wonderful daughter who is a teacher. My friend has paid taxes and never broken a law or been arrested. Why the delay? Her fingerprints have "expired." She's been to Charlotte (100 miles away) 4 times to be fingerprinted. (The closest office with the ability to take fingerprints is in Charlotte.) And, too bad, so sad, they've expired again. She has to go back next week. She won't be sworn in for another 4-5 months.
I can't even begin to tell you how angry and disappointed she is (and we are). She's played fair. She's followed the rules. She's paid what she owes and raised a good citizen. Yet thanks to the gross inefficiency and sheer stupidity of our gov't she still has to wait.
And this administration (and the prior one--don't forget the illegals who were waived in in '96 and '00 prior to the elections) wants to grant illegals ANY sort of special status? No way. It's outrageous.
It has taken over 3 years to get this far. It's been a paperwork nightmare. She came here from Germany 30 years ago to marry her husband and they've been married ever since. They have raised a wonderful daughter who is a teacher. My friend has paid taxes and never broken a law or been arrested. Why the delay? Her fingerprints have "expired." She's been to Charlotte (100 miles away) 4 times to be fingerprinted. (The closest office with the ability to take fingerprints is in Charlotte.) And, too bad, so sad, they've expired again. She has to go back next week. She won't be sworn in for another 4-5 months.
I can't even begin to tell you how angry and disappointed she is (and we are). She's played fair. She's followed the rules. She's paid what she owes and raised a good citizen. Yet thanks to the gross inefficiency and sheer stupidity of our gov't she still has to wait.
And this administration (and the prior one--don't forget the illegals who were waived in in '96 and '00 prior to the elections) wants to grant illegals ANY sort of special status? No way. It's outrageous.
01-15-2004, 07:26 AM
#7
Administrator
Some facts:
It takes a minimum of 15 years from time of application for a Canadian or Mexican to get a green card. Some other countries have a lottery.
Of the 250,000 annual green card quota only 45% are actually issued. The INS can't process any more than that. You could make it a million but the red tape is so thick you'd still only issue 100K of them
If you don't have a university degree, forget it. There are no work visas available. If you do get a job, have a degree then you can apply for labor certification from the dept of labor which takes 3 years minimum. After you get that you can apply for a green card which take another year or two.
In short the US immigration policy allows 4 classes of people in:
a) The ultra poor migrant farm workers who are prepared to work 10 hrs/day of brutal back-breaking labor for minimum wage. These people get the boot when the picking is done or become illegal.
b) The ultra rich those who invest $1+ million in a US company. Many of these people dont even live in the states, they just want the option should the natives become restless and they need an out.
c) Highly skilled workers with university degrees which directly compete with US university grads for work.
d) any random person from some far off land you've never heard of who is lucky enough to have their name pulled from a hat in order to meet a race/nationality quota for immigration.
Since the voters (US citizens) are not subjuct to and never see the immigration system they have no idea what a joke it is and have no idea how to fix it let alone what's wrong with it. The 6 oclock news also has no clue. If you want to know what's wrong with US immigration, ask an immigrant.
It takes a minimum of 15 years from time of application for a Canadian or Mexican to get a green card. Some other countries have a lottery.
Of the 250,000 annual green card quota only 45% are actually issued. The INS can't process any more than that. You could make it a million but the red tape is so thick you'd still only issue 100K of them
If you don't have a university degree, forget it. There are no work visas available. If you do get a job, have a degree then you can apply for labor certification from the dept of labor which takes 3 years minimum. After you get that you can apply for a green card which take another year or two.
In short the US immigration policy allows 4 classes of people in:
a) The ultra poor migrant farm workers who are prepared to work 10 hrs/day of brutal back-breaking labor for minimum wage. These people get the boot when the picking is done or become illegal.
b) The ultra rich those who invest $1+ million in a US company. Many of these people dont even live in the states, they just want the option should the natives become restless and they need an out.
c) Highly skilled workers with university degrees which directly compete with US university grads for work.
d) any random person from some far off land you've never heard of who is lucky enough to have their name pulled from a hat in order to meet a race/nationality quota for immigration.
Since the voters (US citizens) are not subjuct to and never see the immigration system they have no idea what a joke it is and have no idea how to fix it let alone what's wrong with it. The 6 oclock news also has no clue. If you want to know what's wrong with US immigration, ask an immigrant.
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01-15-2004, 07:40 AM
#8
Administrator
Actually, I have a better idea. Let's solve the low wage worker problem by exporting those jobs to other countries where the workers earn 1/10th what they make here just like we've done with manufacturing jobs. Why bother educating decent hard working people looking to make a better life for their families? No jobs = no immigrants = no problem right?
As for breaking the law, we all drive 65 right? Oh but that's not a "real" law so it doesn't count.
As for breaking the law, we all drive 65 right? Oh but that's not a "real" law so it doesn't count.
01-15-2004, 08:05 AM
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Originally posted by cthree
As for breaking the law, we all drive 65 right? Oh but that's not a "real" law so it doesn't count.
As for breaking the law, we all drive 65 right? Oh but that's not a "real" law so it doesn't count.
Do I speed? Yep. And I realize there are consequences to being caught. Its risk vs. return. Same thing goes for illegals working in the Central Valley of CA. But should I expect to be let off by the CHP for going 80 on the 405 on my way to and from work because it's more efficient and/or more productive for my employer? I don't think so.
I don't disagree with you that our immigration system needs a serious overhaul. Granted, its been a long time since anyone in my family went through the system but even back then it was awful. I just don't think that this is anything approaching a reasonable fix.
01-15-2004, 08:57 AM
#10
Administrator
The TRUTH is that there is an illegal alien problem for one reason only: the illegals aren't white and they don't speak english. How many times have you been asked to prove you are legal? Ever been shipped out to the border on a border patrol bus for processing? Anybody ever looked at you funny?
No. I'm white, I speak English and I'm Canadian. I'm not a US citizen and while I am here legally I never carry my passport with me because I don't need to. I pass through a border patrol checkpoint several times each month and I never get a second look.
The only people who have a problem with mexicans are whites (who incidently wouldn't be caught dead working in a strawberry patch in the middle of nowhere for minimum wage and no benefits from dawn till dusk).
Need a hole dug, get a mexican. Need to pick berries, get a mexican. Need your house cleaned, get a mexican. I see it every day right here in my white middle class neighbor hood.
On the other hand the white grocery store clerks at my local supermarket are on strike because they have been asked to pay 5% of their healthcare insurance costs. I guess $20/hr, a pension and benefits aren't enough to put cans on a shelf.
It's about race and nothing more than race. There are more white illegals in this country than you could count and nobody cares and that's precisely because they are white.
Ask yourself, how do they know I'm not an illegal and why don't I ever get asked? It's about race and little else. If mexicans were white and spoke fluent english we wouldn't be talking about this.
The dirty little secret is that we need these "illegals" for without them we couldn't sustain the standard of living we have. The price of our daily essentials would easily double and it would cost $500 to plant that palm tree in your back yard rather than $50. Nobody is honestly prepared to solve the problem because the economy would colapse if they did.
No. I'm white, I speak English and I'm Canadian. I'm not a US citizen and while I am here legally I never carry my passport with me because I don't need to. I pass through a border patrol checkpoint several times each month and I never get a second look.
The only people who have a problem with mexicans are whites (who incidently wouldn't be caught dead working in a strawberry patch in the middle of nowhere for minimum wage and no benefits from dawn till dusk).
Need a hole dug, get a mexican. Need to pick berries, get a mexican. Need your house cleaned, get a mexican. I see it every day right here in my white middle class neighbor hood.
On the other hand the white grocery store clerks at my local supermarket are on strike because they have been asked to pay 5% of their healthcare insurance costs. I guess $20/hr, a pension and benefits aren't enough to put cans on a shelf.
It's about race and nothing more than race. There are more white illegals in this country than you could count and nobody cares and that's precisely because they are white.
Ask yourself, how do they know I'm not an illegal and why don't I ever get asked? It's about race and little else. If mexicans were white and spoke fluent english we wouldn't be talking about this.
The dirty little secret is that we need these "illegals" for without them we couldn't sustain the standard of living we have. The price of our daily essentials would easily double and it would cost $500 to plant that palm tree in your back yard rather than $50. Nobody is honestly prepared to solve the problem because the economy would colapse if they did.