Thoughts on the "drive by wire" cars?
10-10-2003, 03:28 PM
#1
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When I learned to drive, most of the things inside the car were mechanical. If you cannot physically connect/control something, it cannot be done. Within my lifetime, the mechanical door lock "button" has gone to power door lock/unlock. The mechanical window crank has gone to power window. The mechanical baffles that control and direct the air to defrost the windshield is now electrical. The mechanical convertable top has gone to a power top. The mechanical trunk release has gone to a power trunk release. And on and on.
More recent changes: The throttle has gone from a mechanical cable to a wire. The brake system is slowly being replaced by a "power" brake system that does away with the master cylinder and all the hydrolics. The mechanical transmission linkage is being replaced with pedals that control electromechanical shifters. There are already cars where the steering wheel is not mechanically connected to the front wheels, but connected by a wire instead.
I'd like to hear some thoughts on the trend to "drive by wire". Will future cars no longer provide any feel or feedback from the road? Will future drivers be so isolated from the road that driving is no longer "fun"?
More recent changes: The throttle has gone from a mechanical cable to a wire. The brake system is slowly being replaced by a "power" brake system that does away with the master cylinder and all the hydrolics. The mechanical transmission linkage is being replaced with pedals that control electromechanical shifters. There are already cars where the steering wheel is not mechanically connected to the front wheels, but connected by a wire instead.
I'd like to hear some thoughts on the trend to "drive by wire". Will future cars no longer provide any feel or feedback from the road? Will future drivers be so isolated from the road that driving is no longer "fun"?
10-10-2003, 04:28 PM
#2
OK- I'll be the first one to take a chance of sticking my foot in it 
Is not our S2000 steering already "by wire"? If that's true, then it gives you a pretty good answer...no negative effect on the
Let the golden
begin....
Is not our S2000 steering already "by wire"? If that's true, then it gives you a pretty good answer...no negative effect on the
Let the golden
begin....
10-10-2003, 05:25 PM
#3
WhiteS2k - I would be interested in hearing more about the "drive-by wire" steering you mentioned. Which car has it? Do you have any Internet links?
It would take a pretty confident auto manufacturer to make a drive-by-wire steering system. I would think they would need multiple layers of redundancy to avoid the inevitable lawsuits that would come about if a fuse blew or a connector came loose. Or if an accident victim claimed the system failed intermittently just to get the money.
Most electrically assisted or power-asisted systems in our cars have a mechanical basis. We have "power brakes" that are vacuum-assisted, but there is still a mechanical connection between the brake pedal and the master cylinder. The "power assist" is just that - it simply amplifies the pedal pressure. The brakes still work if there is no assist, but of course they take more pressure to activate them.
The same goes for the "power steering" systems, even in the S. I've had the power steering go out (I pissed it off by disconnecting some wires), and you still have steering because the mechanical linkage is still there. It's actually not that bad above 30 mph or so. I've heard that some people have purposely disconnected the power steering for better "feel" for track driving.
Heck, Honda even provided a bypass for the power top so you can operate it if the power system fails, and it's not a safety item at all.
I've heard of one commercial jet that does not have full redundant systems for fly-by-wire controls and it's being investigated for possibly being responsible for crashes. I would think auto makers would be very reluctant to go with an all-wire system unless they've got some serious backing from the legal department.
paS2k - Your foot's not in that deep, you can easily pull it out again
. BTW - how do you manage to be in PA, DE, HI, NC at the same time?
It would take a pretty confident auto manufacturer to make a drive-by-wire steering system. I would think they would need multiple layers of redundancy to avoid the inevitable lawsuits that would come about if a fuse blew or a connector came loose. Or if an accident victim claimed the system failed intermittently just to get the money.
Most electrically assisted or power-asisted systems in our cars have a mechanical basis. We have "power brakes" that are vacuum-assisted, but there is still a mechanical connection between the brake pedal and the master cylinder. The "power assist" is just that - it simply amplifies the pedal pressure. The brakes still work if there is no assist, but of course they take more pressure to activate them.
The same goes for the "power steering" systems, even in the S. I've had the power steering go out (I pissed it off by disconnecting some wires), and you still have steering because the mechanical linkage is still there. It's actually not that bad above 30 mph or so. I've heard that some people have purposely disconnected the power steering for better "feel" for track driving.
Heck, Honda even provided a bypass for the power top so you can operate it if the power system fails, and it's not a safety item at all.
I've heard of one commercial jet that does not have full redundant systems for fly-by-wire controls and it's being investigated for possibly being responsible for crashes. I would think auto makers would be very reluctant to go with an all-wire system unless they've got some serious backing from the legal department.
paS2k - Your foot's not in that deep, you can easily pull it out again
. BTW - how do you manage to be in PA, DE, HI, NC at the same time?
10-10-2003, 05:36 PM
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modifry,
I believe he meant electronically controlled systems, i.e. "by-wire", instead of power assisted. e.g., BMW's computer controlled throttle butterflies and this brake-by-wire system .
Me, personally, I prefer stick shift to SMG, but fuel injection to carbs.
I believe he meant electronically controlled systems, i.e. "by-wire", instead of power assisted. e.g., BMW's computer controlled throttle butterflies and this brake-by-wire system .
Me, personally, I prefer stick shift to SMG, but fuel injection to carbs.
10-10-2003, 05:38 PM
#5
I thought that the "fly by wire" systems that were being thought of for cars at this point all involved the throttle. I had also heard that a version of something resembling Microsoft's "force feedback" was being incorporated so that there wouldn't be any loss of feel.
I'm not sure if this is true, but it's something I heard.
I haven't heard of any manufacturer planning to incorporate "fly by wire" into steering or braking at this point.
I'm not sure if this is true, but it's something I heard.
I haven't heard of any manufacturer planning to incorporate "fly by wire" into steering or braking at this point.
10-10-2003, 05:45 PM
#6
The S2000 has rack and pinion steering that is electro-magnetic power assist. Just think electric "motor" rather than hydraulic pump. It is still mechanically connected.
Mercedes has been playing with steer by wire for some time. No direct mechanical connection. I believe one Mercedes already has brakes by wire. The testers didn't like it.
My Jaguar S Type has throttle by wire. No linkage at all.
Shift by wire? He he. My friend's 1953 Dodge had that. Push buttons on the dash.
Its all coming friends, its all coming
Mercedes has been playing with steer by wire for some time. No direct mechanical connection. I believe one Mercedes already has brakes by wire. The testers didn't like it.
My Jaguar S Type has throttle by wire. No linkage at all.
Shift by wire? He he. My friend's 1953 Dodge had that. Push buttons on the dash.
Its all coming friends, its all coming
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10-11-2003, 07:50 AM
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I am the turncoat that got a 350Z that has drive by wire throttle and trust me it does not feel the same. Simply put it feels weak at say half throttle to other cars including the S2000. If you want to get going quickly you have to literally floor it.
10-11-2003, 08:20 AM
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I've driven vehicles that are fly-by-wire. Duel redundancy built in. It was FUN as hell.
My feeling is, If that's how it drives, and you want to drive it, then drive it, or don't.
If I need a "Direct Connection" to the road, I'll get naked and hug it.
My feeling is, If that's how it drives, and you want to drive it, then drive it, or don't.
If I need a "Direct Connection" to the road, I'll get naked and hug it.