What a interesting start to the 2014 F1 season
03-18-2014, 05:11 AM
#21
From Matt's post:
1. According to the FIA sensor fitted to the car, the Red Bull exceeded the maximum allowed fuel flow of 100kg per hour, and after over five hours of deliberations the stewards ruled the car was run illegally.
2. After differences between the sensor's readings and the team's readings during Friday practice, Red Bull fitted a new sensor on Saturday, which failed during qualifying. For the race the FIA technical representative instructed the team to revert to the original sensor from Friday and apply an offset to make up for the discrepancies in the readings.
3. Red Bull considered the original fuel flow sensor to be unreliable and for the start of the race chose to use its "internal fuel flow model ... with the required offset" instead.
4. the FIA technical representative contacted the team during the race saying the fuel flow was too high and gave them "the opportunity to follow his previous instruction and reduce the fuel flow such that it was within the limit ... and thus gave the team the opportunity to be within compliance". However, the team did not make the correction.
5. The stewards therefore found that:
"The team chose to run the car using their fuel flow model, without direction from the FIA. This is a violation of the procedure within the procedure within TD/ 016-14.
"That although the sensor showed a difference in readings between runs in P1 [first practice], it remains the homologated and required sensor against which the team is obliged to measure their fuel flow, unless given permission by the FIA to do otherwise.
"The stewards were satisfied by the explanation of the technical representative that by making an adjustment as instructed, the team could have run within the allowable fuel flow.
Translation: The FIA sensor was broken. The sustitute FIA sensor failed. The FIA said "go back to the one that has failed because we think it is good enough for you." The team didn't want to rely on broken equipment in their race car. The team obviously left the broken sensor in place but instead relied on their own internal sensor. The broken sensor reported that the team went over the fuel burn rate, even though the team had no fuel problems during the race. The FIA decides to support their technical guy's decision to tell the team to use broken equipment and a math calculation to "guess" at how much fuel they are using and disqualified the team based on readings from a broken sensor and for not relying on the broken sensor.
I guess people can say "these are the rules and they must be followed" but I'll side with the team that does not want to use broken equipment in their race car. If FIA wants the teams to use their sensor they should have a box of them ready to go into place.
1. According to the FIA sensor fitted to the car, the Red Bull exceeded the maximum allowed fuel flow of 100kg per hour, and after over five hours of deliberations the stewards ruled the car was run illegally.
2. After differences between the sensor's readings and the team's readings during Friday practice, Red Bull fitted a new sensor on Saturday, which failed during qualifying. For the race the FIA technical representative instructed the team to revert to the original sensor from Friday and apply an offset to make up for the discrepancies in the readings.
3. Red Bull considered the original fuel flow sensor to be unreliable and for the start of the race chose to use its "internal fuel flow model ... with the required offset" instead.
4. the FIA technical representative contacted the team during the race saying the fuel flow was too high and gave them "the opportunity to follow his previous instruction and reduce the fuel flow such that it was within the limit ... and thus gave the team the opportunity to be within compliance". However, the team did not make the correction.
5. The stewards therefore found that:
"The team chose to run the car using their fuel flow model, without direction from the FIA. This is a violation of the procedure within the procedure within TD/ 016-14.
"That although the sensor showed a difference in readings between runs in P1 [first practice], it remains the homologated and required sensor against which the team is obliged to measure their fuel flow, unless given permission by the FIA to do otherwise.
"The stewards were satisfied by the explanation of the technical representative that by making an adjustment as instructed, the team could have run within the allowable fuel flow.
Translation: The FIA sensor was broken. The sustitute FIA sensor failed. The FIA said "go back to the one that has failed because we think it is good enough for you." The team didn't want to rely on broken equipment in their race car. The team obviously left the broken sensor in place but instead relied on their own internal sensor. The broken sensor reported that the team went over the fuel burn rate, even though the team had no fuel problems during the race. The FIA decides to support their technical guy's decision to tell the team to use broken equipment and a math calculation to "guess" at how much fuel they are using and disqualified the team based on readings from a broken sensor and for not relying on the broken sensor.
I guess people can say "these are the rules and they must be followed" but I'll side with the team that does not want to use broken equipment in their race car. If FIA wants the teams to use their sensor they should have a box of them ready to go into place.
03-18-2014, 06:36 AM
#22
sources from other teams have told AUTOSPORT that they too experienced minor discrepancies between the sensor's rate and what their own fuel-flow estimation was.
But on the back of clarifications made by the FIA earlier this month - making it clear that the fuel-flow rate being produced by the sensor would be the one that determined conformity with the regulations - no other team went down the Red Bull route and deliberately ignored the sensor reading.
Instead, the teams have accepted that when they are alerted to the possibility the sensor could exceed the 100kg per hour rate at peak flow, irrespective of what their own data says, they have to peg back their rate slightly to ensure there is no breach of the rules.
The winding back is minor but has become an accepted part of understanding the new fuel efficiency formula.
Red Bull did not trust the readings from the sensor on Ricciardo's car, however, and furthermore ignored advice from the FIA to turn down its flow rate in the race.
Sensor supplier Gill Sensors claims that 52 per cent of its meters are with a 0.1 per cent accuracy reading, with 92 per cent within 0.25 per cent.
But on the back of clarifications made by the FIA earlier this month - making it clear that the fuel-flow rate being produced by the sensor would be the one that determined conformity with the regulations - no other team went down the Red Bull route and deliberately ignored the sensor reading.
Instead, the teams have accepted that when they are alerted to the possibility the sensor could exceed the 100kg per hour rate at peak flow, irrespective of what their own data says, they have to peg back their rate slightly to ensure there is no breach of the rules.
The winding back is minor but has become an accepted part of understanding the new fuel efficiency formula.
Red Bull did not trust the readings from the sensor on Ricciardo's car, however, and furthermore ignored advice from the FIA to turn down its flow rate in the race.
Sensor supplier Gill Sensors claims that 52 per cent of its meters are with a 0.1 per cent accuracy reading, with 92 per cent within 0.25 per cent.
03-18-2014, 06:50 AM
#23
And how far out was the Red Bull Sensor?
03-18-2014, 07:01 AM
#24
Is that like, "being a little pregnant"?
I lost strong interest a few years back, but rules are rules. If you want to play in the NFL, or MBL...etc., you may not use drugs that will enhance your abilities. In F1 they have a new set of rules to try to keep a very small number of teams from dominating all of the time. You break the rules, you lose, it's their game, and they will make whatever rules they think will continue to keep them profitable.
Just my two cents, which are only worth about 1.3 cents now.
I lost strong interest a few years back, but rules are rules. If you want to play in the NFL, or MBL...etc., you may not use drugs that will enhance your abilities. In F1 they have a new set of rules to try to keep a very small number of teams from dominating all of the time. You break the rules, you lose, it's their game, and they will make whatever rules they think will continue to keep them profitable.
Just my two cents, which are only worth about 1.3 cents now.
03-18-2014, 07:21 AM
#25
Originally Posted by Legal Bill' timestamp='1395154236' post='23068477
And how far out was the Red Bull Sensor?
I lost strong interest a few years back, but rules are rules. If you want to play in the NFL, or MBL...etc., you may not use drugs that will enhance your abilities. In F1 they have a new set of rules to try to keep a very small number of teams from dominating all of the time. You break the rules, you lose, it's their game, and they will make whatever rules they think will continue to keep them profitable.
Just my two cents, which are only worth about 1.3 cents now.
03-18-2014, 08:01 AM
#26
Originally Posted by Zippy' timestamp='1395154898' post='23068495
[quote name='Legal Bill' timestamp='1395154236' post='23068477']
And how far out was the Red Bull Sensor?
And how far out was the Red Bull Sensor?
I lost strong interest a few years back, but rules are rules. If you want to play in the NFL, or MBL...etc., you may not use drugs that will enhance your abilities. In F1 they have a new set of rules to try to keep a very small number of teams from dominating all of the time. You break the rules, you lose, it's their game, and they will make whatever rules they think will continue to keep them profitable.
Just my two cents, which are only worth about 1.3 cents now.
[/quote]
OK Bill, you force me to continue quoting from Autosport:
TEAMS HAVE FAITH IN THE FIA
The fuel-flow sensor technology is new, and there have been issues with calibrating the sensors accurately since they were first tested.
But Red Bull's rivals are adamant that teams have to put their faith in the governing body.
Stefano Domenicali F1 Ferrari 2014
Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali said: "We need to rely on the fact that it is a situation that is well managed by the FIA, and that is it to be honest.
"We have the FIA that will do their job and I am sure there will not be a problem at all."
Mercedes motorsport boss Toto Wolff said: "I think it is just all the systems have to work together.
"The FIA is obviously controlling fuel flow and checking with all the teams, and it is a question of learning by doing it between the FIA and the teams.
"The fuel-flow meter is an FIA system, and this needs to be integrated in the cars.
"This is a learning process where the teams support the FIA and vice versa."
The fuel-flow sensor technology is new, and there have been issues with calibrating the sensors accurately since they were first tested.
But Red Bull's rivals are adamant that teams have to put their faith in the governing body.
Stefano Domenicali F1 Ferrari 2014
Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali said: "We need to rely on the fact that it is a situation that is well managed by the FIA, and that is it to be honest.
"We have the FIA that will do their job and I am sure there will not be a problem at all."
Mercedes motorsport boss Toto Wolff said: "I think it is just all the systems have to work together.
"The FIA is obviously controlling fuel flow and checking with all the teams, and it is a question of learning by doing it between the FIA and the teams.
"The fuel-flow meter is an FIA system, and this needs to be integrated in the cars.
"This is a learning process where the teams support the FIA and vice versa."
03-18-2014, 10:19 AM
#27
Just a bunch of FIA brown noses. Those teams will turn on anyone if it knocks them out of the points. Let's see the data. How far out of synch was the Red Bull sensor compared to all the rest? Bottom line is, Red Bull finished with no fuel problems, so I still have not seen how they gained any advantage by this. Just a box to check from what I have seen so far.
03-18-2014, 10:29 AM
#28
Just a bunch of FIA brown noses. Those teams will turn on anyone if it knocks them out of the points. Let's see the data. How far out of synch was the Red Bull sensor compared to all the rest? Bottom line is, Red Bull finished with no fuel problems, so I still have not seen how they gained any advantage by this. Just a box to check from what I have seen so far.
03-18-2014, 01:09 PM
#29
Originally Posted by Zippy' timestamp='1395154898' post='23068495
[quote name='Legal Bill' timestamp='1395154236' post='23068477']
And how far out was the Red Bull Sensor?
And how far out was the Red Bull Sensor?
I lost strong interest a few years back, but rules are rules. If you want to play in the NFL, or MBL...etc., you may not use drugs that will enhance your abilities. In F1 they have a new set of rules to try to keep a very small number of teams from dominating all of the time. You break the rules, you lose, it's their game, and they will make whatever rules they think will continue to keep them profitable.
Just my two cents, which are only worth about 1.3 cents now.
[/quote]
I agree, that seems to make better sense if they are unable to accurately provide identical technology. That said, this is not rocket surgery or brain science, this is a flow meter, they should be able to get 24 identically calibrated units.
03-18-2014, 01:35 PM
#30
Where does it say they actually used more fuel? Based on the readings of the faulty sensor? Great. Here is a bad sensor. It is inaccurate, but it says you used too much fuel so we are going to disqualify you based on what the faulty sensor says. Huh? What's that you say? You didn't use up any more of your fuel allotment than anyone else? What's that got to do with it? We go by the sensor.