(about as on-topic as the rest of what's oozed out here, so here goes)

Then, I guess they should ban you too? Bieg was interjecting when he felt it necessary. That was one of the biggest reasons given for what lead to his banning. I think Sondra S2K mentioned it a couple times.

I am glad you are standing up for being within your membership agreement to interject.

So am I.

Many other members need to hear that and be just as brave.


I wasn't saying you were off-topic, so you don't need to explain what it was you were doing. You're not accountable to me.

As for attempting to throttle you -- I just said you are welcome to not participate if you are bored by a thread and that I didn't see you interfering with other threads that had served their purpose. In fact, thats exactly what I said. Look up, ever so slightly. There goes your throttling point.

As for throttle, the only throttling I have seen so far is Jeff going-off on a paternal speak-when-spoken-to spiel. Its still up there, in fact, you can't M..I..S..S it. He took some great P A I N S to build up a case about why I was apparently out of line for participating. Read his message, you'll know what the C A P S mean. He was patting someone on the back earlier for decrying "shrill" -- a little ironic. Even more so when he was using words like "civility", "anger", and "retaliation" in describing good member behaviour to QueRAM. Also read what I had written to him, and see if he had much to freak out over. Did I respond in a similar manner? Nope. Did he seem civil or angry in his retaliation?

Back to you, Gregg -- I would love to see more on-topic posts from you. I don't feel the need to ignore anyone, derail or mock their threads with off-topic posts, or overtly flippant behaviour.

Now, considering that Luder94, QueRAM, ultimate lurker, RoadTrip and others* in this thread are of similar mind as I, why aren't you bothering to address them? Is there a reason you are singling me out?

Anyone else notice this?

Anyway, its obviously not just MY point. Luder94 started the thread for what he felt were good reasons and others have perpetuated it. Some much more calmly than others. Now that Jeff and Gregg have agreed that they're not trying to stop discussion (then again, that seemed to change as soon as you ask them why they were, with all the "lets move on" and "you weren't spoken to" talk) I guess we can continue -- that is, if they're more interested in the topic than just trying to get me going.

Speaking of which, Gregg -- do you remember admitting in a PM that you were mostly in this just because you liked to see it get me going? Yes, I remember now, I remember just like the PM was sitting in my mailbox -- I am the simpleton for not realizing you're just in it to have fun with me.

Way cool, man.



* sorry to drop names, fellas -- just part of wondering about what makes me special to Gregg, Jeff, et al. Maybe I smell like bacon, I don't know.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Honda Gal
[B]SEV, this forum has to be run as a business in order to support what we have.

 

Well after reading the last few threads I have a few thoughts as well.
First off, Intimidation..If there is something you want to say, say it! What do you have to worry about? Oh some people on the board won't like me? Who cares? This community thrives on ALL the voices that belong to it, right, wrong, it doesn't matter.

#2 Jeff and I see eye to eye on most things in recent memory, I understand his logic, and I get his point. Silver Fog on the other hand maybe not so much, but in reading his last few posts in this topic, I was happy as both a member and as a moderator in how he spoke and handled the situation, where as I may have been a little offensive in that circumstance. No one here needs my approval, but I'm more then happy to offer it when I see something that makes me say it out loud. Good for you!

#3 this site is a business...Yep just like pretty much everything else in life. Hell my whole life is a business in the way I conduct it. Money in, money out, I get the value I think I deserve Etc. etc. Cthree has said it before, this is an expensive thing to run and alot of it comes out of his own pocket. He has every right to run things the way he wants, and he deserves to at minimum break even for something that I think alot of people take for granted.

But lets just break it down to the basics for just a second. This is a website, one of what a billion others out there. There are a couple thousand people who signed up to particiapte. Maybe 500 post in any sort of regular basis, maybe 50 post all the time. Its a bunch of people that all own an S2000 or would like to. We get together, shoot the shit, learn some new things, and have fun. IMO this isnt the UN, it's not a summit meeting on the ineqaulities of life or the pursuit of justice. Its a bunch of people brought to a common ground by a car. Nothing more, nothing less.

Have fun, enjoy the board, and all it has to offer.
Anything more is just hot air.

Sincerely yours,

Mike

 

This whole thing has gone far beyond retarded.

I am sick and tired of people claiming to speak for others. You only get one say, you can't create popular opinion simply by saying that it exists. If you have been authorized to speak for others then you should also be authorized similarly to identify them. Bieg said to me a many weeks ago that he was speaking for many others too meek to speak for themselves. How stupid is that? You want community or even to claim it exists yet there are all these hapless bastard too shy to say what they think? What kind of community is that? Those that have spoken their opinion have had theirs noted. The "extra ballots" don't count.

Say what you think or say nothing, the choice is yours. Obviously these "others" don't care enough to step forward. This idea that they will be somehow punished is nonsense. No one has ever been acted upon for how they feel about this issue or any other. If you've got a problem then state it. If you don't it doesn't exist.

How's that for free speech. As I've said before, Honda Gal is looking after these issues now. If you want her to overturn the decision or change it then make an appeal. I'm sure she will listen.

2x6 had said in another thread that he would form a defence and present such an appeal. I suggest you PM with him if you'd like to organize something as a group. So far a dozen or so members have said they strongly disagree and a few viamently. Get together and make a strong case. One that's well thought out and offers a strong argument as to why you think my decision was wrong. Make this appeal to her, not me as she has all the powers necessary to change it. If she does then my position is a matter of record but I will not stand in the way of whatever she chooses to do. (hint: she voted against the ban) so you've got a leg up already. However, 2x6 also said that the "loving feeling is gone" and that he would be spending less time here. Do I believe it? Not really. He said almost the exact same thing several months ago when one of his posts was moved, right down to the "loving" bit.

I've been here since the first second the site opened. I was the first member, the first moderator and the first administrator. I have been intimately involved in every scrum, squabble, insult, issue, complaint and protest that has ever happened. I know every active member and I have a photographic memory. I've never hidden and have always been available 16-18hrs a day, 7 days a week. I publish my ICQ #, AIM handle, telephone number and fax number. I suspect many of the complaintants would think of making such a commitment.

 

Mindcore wrote:

"Well after reading the last few threads I have a few thoughts as well."
"First off, Intimidation..If there is something you want to say, say it! What do you have to worry about? Oh some people on the board won't like me? Who cares? This community thrives on ALL the voices that belong to it, right, wrong, it doesn't matter. "

Gee, Mindcore, I must be missing something here. You say "If there is something you want to say, say it!"

But before you say it, remember Bieg was banned after being bashed by other members whose behavior was really offensive.

You say, "This community thrives on ALL the voices that belong to it, right, wrong, it doesn't matter. " Not quite ALL, right Mindcore?

A lot of folks are offended by the decision to ban Bieg and silence his point of view. When they try to discuss this matter on the main forum, first it gets moved, then folks who speak out against the banning get personally bashed by folks like Jeff and Gregg, then the moderators say that they are of like mind with Jeff and pronounce everyone gets to say what they want.

Then the folks who don't want this matter discussed start talking about baseball or fishing while insulting those who do wish to discuss it or register their disapproval of the banning. But as to your being "bored," note that though buried the last thread had well over 4000 hits and this one on its way to 900. Someone's interested in case you haven't really noticed.

Once Jeff, Gregg and others get sufficiently offensive, the thread gets locked.

If Jeff and Gregg are so bored by this discussion, perhaps they may want to step aside and just let those who want to discuss it do so.

In any case, whether Cthree and the moderators know it, their decision to ban Bieg and their subsequent conduct has brought this site down by striking a bad balance between the interests of sponsors and members. This site is clearly sponsor/vendor oriented - the members are simply here to sell to the sponsors.

Feels very different from when we thought it was a community of common interest.

2x6spds

 

Well 2X6, I'm not going to get in to an argument, I'm not even in the mood to even discuss this really, but I'll reply to your post any way.
First off, Forget the fact it says moderator under my name, I wasn't one a month ago, I've posted on almost every subject, and I have no enemy's that I know of. What I was saying was in response the the statement "many people agree with me, but don't want to speak up. Everyone has the right to state thier opinion. But they don't have the right to belittle, ridicule or harrass others. There is a big difference, and I'm sure you are aware of what they are.

Now because I'm a moderator, I'm not alowed to have my own opinion? So I say I'm of like mind as Jeff, do you take that as S2Ki's endorsement that anything he may say will always be allowed? Don't play games, I'm damn sure you know exactly what I was talking about, and you knew the point I was trying to make.

as for discussing this in the main forum? It's called S2000 Talk. That is what its meant for. Site Info is for just such a purpose. It's only a click away, so whats the big deal?

And believe me I noticed that the previous thread had plenty of views, I never said I was bored, and I don't think I've done anything to make this thread any less then it is.

As for sponsor / vendor oreinted....Well I have never bought anything from the sponsers, and I don't feel unwelcome. But I guess in your view I'm just wasting bandwidth for more potential customers. I wonder how long before they cancel my membership?

 

Peace Mindcore.

You're clearly an OK guy and anyone who posts a naked picture of themselves as their avatar looks more like a member than moderator.

Personally, I think that banning is only appropriate for really vicious misconduct, racial or religious attacks, false flag posting, disruptive insanity.

I think that we have seen posts far more offensive than Bieg's on this and the related thread. As time passes, it just becomes more clear to me that the banning was a big mistake.

Reminds me of the disruptive political threads from before the last presidential election. There are things about members I just don't want to know about. The threads discussing the banning is another political/social Rorshak test.

Although I may be warmed by signs of what I consider high character in Luder, SilverFog (not "Foggy" Gregg), Sev, Sunchild, UL, and many others, I can also say that I am sort of disgusted with what some others have shown.

This would not be an issue if cars were the subject of our posts. Perhaps that's why some want to shut down this discussion. But since the banning is an important issue, that is not possible. To the mockers who will say it is not important, just look at the number of hits these 2 threads have received.

The banning of Bieg raised a "meta" issue for the board, focusing attention of members on the operation of the site itself. Before our collective peace was disrupted by the banning, it was relatively transparent - we talked about cars, this is where we did it.

Now the site and its policies are the subject of many members' considerations, and it no longer appears as safe and innocent a place as it did not so long ago.

It now appears that there is a commercial caucus with vicious and vengeful tendencies which demands a level of conformity of opinion under threat of banning. Caving to a group like this was a big mistake.

BTW, What does VOTA stand for?

 

I do agree with Sev, UL, and the others who have expressed their thoughts on business, etc.

I know I have not proven myself to the membership yet, but it is going to be a cold canadian day in hell before I give up. I can't beg and plead for things to change. All I can ask is you give me and opportunity. Tell when I am doing wrong, tell me what might work, work with me, not against me.


I apolgize this is OT from the original thread start, so for give me. I am going to go play in my room.

All notes are dully (sp) noted, and I am taking this very very seriously.

 

Hey, Sev -- I'm not saying that your customer-service angle is off, but it was mostly the membership that were saying the "if you don't like it, leave" stuff. Mostly.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sev
[B]I for one no longer feel as welcome here, i do post here and there, but no longer feel that i am part of any community.

 

Silverfog, I liked your thread. I don't need to quote it.

There are some very good thoughts... you are right the moderator's do not need to be called moderators, but it is like the police person. If you need help or have a question you know who to go to.