Is This The End of the Petrol Engine?
07-22-2006, 02:38 AM
#21
Registered User
The future of automotive fuels is going to be fuel cells. It's the only technology that's truely more efficient, clean and practical enough to be used in vehicles long term.
A pure fuel cell based car will run off hydrogen and it's only output is water. Fuelling is simple since it's a chemical based 'battery' meaning you just need to refill with hydrogen to recharge so should take no longer than petrol.
As a comparison in efficiencies a normal reciprocating petrol engine will get about 40% thermal efficiency (maybe 45% with LPG conversion). A gas turbine will get to about 60% where as a fuel cell will work at about 80%.
As other people have mentioned though the process of getting hydrogen uses significant amounts of energy............well not if done right. You can make catalytic stacks that will break down hydrogen rich fuels into hydrogen to fuel the car.
The most probable and 'greenest' of these options is alcohol. The alcohol is passed through a Catalyst stack that breaks it down into hydrogen, CO2 (although resultant quantity is significantly less than a petrol car) and heat. The hydrogen is then passed through the fuel cell generating electricity to power the car. The waste water is then passed through a heat exchanger at the catalyst to be turned into steam that can produce further power (through a turbine) or heat the passenger compartment. This makes the whole system even more efficient.
Whilst this design is still producing CO2 it is running off alcohol which can be produced from sugar and hence grown (absorbing CO2) and fermented. The whole system ends up being essentially environmentally neutral.
Biggest drawback is manufacturing the fuel cells of sufficient performance is currently very expensive but as further research goes into it the costs are dropping.
A pure fuel cell based car will run off hydrogen and it's only output is water. Fuelling is simple since it's a chemical based 'battery' meaning you just need to refill with hydrogen to recharge so should take no longer than petrol.
As a comparison in efficiencies a normal reciprocating petrol engine will get about 40% thermal efficiency (maybe 45% with LPG conversion). A gas turbine will get to about 60% where as a fuel cell will work at about 80%.
As other people have mentioned though the process of getting hydrogen uses significant amounts of energy............well not if done right. You can make catalytic stacks that will break down hydrogen rich fuels into hydrogen to fuel the car.
The most probable and 'greenest' of these options is alcohol. The alcohol is passed through a Catalyst stack that breaks it down into hydrogen, CO2 (although resultant quantity is significantly less than a petrol car) and heat. The hydrogen is then passed through the fuel cell generating electricity to power the car. The waste water is then passed through a heat exchanger at the catalyst to be turned into steam that can produce further power (through a turbine) or heat the passenger compartment. This makes the whole system even more efficient.
Whilst this design is still producing CO2 it is running off alcohol which can be produced from sugar and hence grown (absorbing CO2) and fermented. The whole system ends up being essentially environmentally neutral.
Biggest drawback is manufacturing the fuel cells of sufficient performance is currently very expensive but as further research goes into it the costs are dropping.
07-22-2006, 03:03 AM
#22
Fuel cells may be 80% efficient, but there are big losses on the induction motor, even with regen. braking.
The alchohol-manufacturing process is gonna require a lot of land.
Fine for Brazil, where there's big land & few bodies.
Forget the UK. Might as well drink the stuff!
The alchohol-manufacturing process is gonna require a lot of land.
Fine for Brazil, where there's big land & few bodies.
Forget the UK. Might as well drink the stuff!
07-22-2006, 03:19 AM
#24
Registered User
Originally Posted by Nick Graves,Jul 22 2006, 11:03 AM
Fuel cells may be 80% efficient, but there are big losses on the induction motor, even with regen. braking.
The alchohol-manufacturing process is gonna require a lot of land.
Fine for Brazil, where there's big land & few bodies.
Forget the UK. Might as well drink the stuff!
The alchohol-manufacturing process is gonna require a lot of land.
Fine for Brazil, where there's big land & few bodies.
Forget the UK. Might as well drink the stuff!
Give it a few years and you'll end up with Sugar manufacturing countries as the next Saudi Arabia
07-22-2006, 03:24 AM
#25
True enough, it's going that way.
The FCX is a handsome car, too. And promised soon.
The most interesting/explosive risk will be the reaction of the oils companies & their private army (the United/Standard Oil Army [or US Army]) to the changing power base. There's been some intimation they've been sabotaging a lot so far!
The FCX is a handsome car, too. And promised soon.
The most interesting/explosive risk will be the reaction of the oils companies & their private army (the United/Standard Oil Army [or US Army]) to the changing power base. There's been some intimation they've been sabotaging a lot so far!
07-23-2006, 11:05 AM
#28
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Originally Posted by fluffyninja,Jul 22 2006, 11:19 AM
Give it a few years and you'll end up with Sugar manufacturing countries as the next Saudi Arabia
I though he was using his still for making moonshine and all the while he's trying to save the planet!
07-23-2006, 11:07 AM
#29
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Originally Posted by soulcrew,Jul 22 2006, 11:38 AM
will an electric car go vrooom vrooom roar etc.
whats the point.
whats the point.