Dog Biscuit

... and whilst we're talking of F1, surely I can't be the only person who doesn't like all the "driver aids" that are used as well as the tyre rules?

It would be nice to have a car that is essentially mechanically driven by a human being.

No traction control (LSD is mechanical so no probs with that), no launch control, no auto gear select (perhaps a manual clutch?), no over zealous ECU management to take away from the driver.

Give them grippy tyres and make the engine 2.5 litre instead of 3 litre if you are worried about them killing themselves.

dinsdale

The move on Senna at the Hungaroring in '89 was great (I still have it on vid somewhere) But the best EVER was the 1990 Mexican GP where he overtook Berger round the OUTSIDE of the peralta. It was clearly considered too exciting for the us the viewers, so no more Mexican GP, and most other interesting corners and circuits have been bastardised since as well.

Pete

AlexC

Sounds like they should be driving S200's!

- we're about the only modern cars without traction control aren't we? Must just be better drivers.

Frenchie

Marc, this is a post I put up on another thread at the weekend:
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At the risk of being shot down in flames, I think F1 has become too "unreal". It used to be about driving the ultimate single-seat cars with the ultimate skill. Now we have traction control, "launch systems" and the drivers have different skills.

Add in automatic gearboxes and auto-braking and all that will have happened is that what should be the best single-seat racing in the world will have become a real-life computer game. We're most of the way there already.

Just my 2p

I'll go now
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Dog Biscuit

I'm glad I'm not the only fruitcake who thinks this way.

If only FOCA listened to us!

Kobe

as an engineer but also as a passionate watcher of F1 - I find this one of the most difficult debates to find a balance.

F1 needs technology - you can't have an F1 car lower tech than a family saloon. The FIA regs are designed in such a way to allow some things which are almost impossible to control and ban others which escalate the costs and increase the speeds.

An 911 has more advanced systems on it now than an F1 car. Moveable aero parts (banned in F1), different braking pressure applied to each wheel (banned in F1), modulated braking - ABS (banned in F1), electronic steering systems (banned in F1), turbocharging (banned in F1), etc etc.

In terms of driver skill - does it take more skill to change gear in an S2000 at high speed than with one of Leyland's finest gearboxes found in a Maxi. You can argue that the S2000 technology "aids" the driver.

I think FIA have marked out areas that they want to control - gearboxes remain manual controlled - even though not pushed by a lever (CVT is banned - only between 4 and 7 forward gears allowed) - and brakes must be controlled by the driver along with the steering - only mechanical aids can help. Engine management has to be electronic - otherwise we are back to carbs - and hence traction control is essentially part of this system. Given all what is possible - I think the balance is more or less right.

However - do we still have a spectacle - maybe not, the aero is so important nowadays it is almost impossible to overtake a car unless you have a big advantage.

What was missing from the Spain GP was a 2nd Ferrari - maybe then we would have seen the skill of 2 drivers competing with the same technology. Shame technology robbed us of that.

ianl

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dinsdale
[B]

The move on Senna at the Hungaroring in '89 was great (I still have it on vid somewhere) But the best EVER was the 1990 Mexican GP where he overtook Berger round the OUTSIDE of the peralta.

tokyo_james

I agree with what you said about the engineering side, well put, I haven't really thought about it in that way before.......

As far as the two ferrari's go, I doubt that it would have been any more interesting, since I am sure that team orders would have prevented anything remotely interesting happen between the two of them

Frenchie

Kobe, why is traction control essentially a part of electronic engine management? (We don't have it on the S2000) I honestly don't understand why an aid to keep the car under control under acceleration should be viewed as OK when one designed to do the same thing under braking (ABS) is, quite rightly, currently banned. And what's all this "launch control" malarkey? For me, the excitement at the start was always that battle of skills with a driver getting the revs just right , letting the clutch go at precisely the right moment, and launching the car - all by himself.

I think perhaps Marc and I wary of an insiduous "infiltration" of car control aids like these that, eventually, even though currently not acceptable, will become acceptable and remove most of the "man over machine" battle that F1 used really to be.

AlexC

Hungary was my favourite move - as you say, notoriously difficult to overtake, and just when Senna thought he had the good opportunuity to overtake the car in front of him, Nige overtakeas Senna and the car Senna is overtaking - bloody brilliant.

Today's press are reporting Schumacher as saying he thinks his car can win at every track this year - not sure I can bear to watch that