Looking for experienced response(s) here... Take a look at this ebay offering...

See, I've had my Racing Hart C2 3-piece rims on The Bruised Banana for at least 3 years now...and I'd say a good 80K miles (car has 122K miles now ). While I *have* had these rims on the car...I've never even considered a need for "hubcentric rings" .

So why this thread...and why am I curious about hubcentric rings now? . Well, seems recently my rear lugs (2 on each side) managed to break off on The Bruised Banana. I was willing to kick in a macho thought that I drive the car very aggressively, and that behavior has had a bad effect on the lugs over time, heat-cycles, etc. Also was willing to more humbly consider the possibility that I'd over-torqued the lugs since I tend to hand-tighten them (rather than use a torque wrench).

Well, with the replacement [of all] rear lugs recently, my mechanic made an observation... He noted that my rim does not "fit" to the central hub (best way I can describe this). Instead, its as though the only "direct contact/fitment" the wheel has with the hub is only at each tightened down lug point. That the center hole in the wheel has no "mate" to slide/fit over on the hub.

Could it be that, all the weight of the car resting on the lugs...and none of the weight centrally distributed to the core of the hub...might have caused my lugs to fail over time? And if so, would the hubcentric rings be an answer?

Thanks in advance for your experience

- Dave

 

Forget the rings and get yourself a torque wrench. Once the wheel is installed, a hub adapter ring carries no weight. That's why most of them are made of plastic. The vertical shear forces between the wheel and the rotor are carried by the friction between the two flat mating surfaces. That friction is created by tightening the lugnuts. With the lugnuts torqued properly, there is far more friction force between the wheel and rotor than is needed to support the car or handle the dynamic loads created by driving.

Adapter Rings are solely to help you put the wheel on so that it's centered when you tighten the lug nuts. If you are careful when you install a wheel with tapered lug nuts, the taper on the lug nuts will center the wheel for you.

When you switch from your stock wheels to the aftermarket wheels, you switch from the Honda ball-seat nuts to aftermarket flat-tapered-seat nuts, right?

 

Umm...nope . I'm still to this day using my OEM lug nuts. But I hear your point loud and clear .

I'll look into appropriate aftermarket lug nuts immediately. Thank you for your response.

- Dave

PS. Happy "5th" year

 

[QUOTE=Orthonormal,Nov 29 2005, 12:39 PM]Forget the rings and get yourself a torque wrench.

 

Wow, there is a lot of misinformation out there!

I just want to add that the studs and lugs were never designed to center the wheel on the hub. They usually do so sufficiently, but are not designed nor guaranteed to do so. The hubcentric ring is designed to maintain the proper tolerance between wheel center and hub center while the lugs are tightened. So, some people get the shakes when they skip the hubcentric rings, some don't. It's the variability of tolerances.

Also, those studs are not designed to take the number of tighten/loosen cycles that some people ask of them. Track guys, autocrossers, etc... have their wheels on and off a lot, and the studs simply fatigue over time. Each time they are tightened, they stretch a little, and relax when loosened, and fatigue cracks propagate. Eventually... snap! We're supposed to replace our studs every season when we use our cars for motorsports!

Sounds to me like yours just fatigued and failed. The amount of force, by the way, on a stud when tightened is enormous... many time that of the forces of cornering, braking, etc.

The formula is

T = .2 D F

where

T = torque
F = bolt tension
D = bolt diameter

Solving for force with a 80 ft-lb torque, we get 10,160 lb. Yes, that's right. 5 tons for EACH lug. That's 25 tons total force clamping the wheel to the hub. Now it's easy to imagine that the hubcentric ring does nothing for you once the lugs are tight.

Cheers,
Ken

 

I don't know if you're referring to my post or not, but I will say this:

The question of whether the studs & lugs center the wheel is just a matter of whether their holes were machined to high enough precision. Likewise, if there is enough slop in the fit of the centering hole or adapter ring, then it's more likely that the studs will provide a more accurate and definite center.

Here is my experience: On my Miata, which is finicky about wheel balance and centering, I used non-hubcentric wheels for two years and never had a vibration problem. The centering rings I got with my S2000 race wheels don't fit very snugly -- they are good enough to place the wheel so I can zip the lugnuts on without rubbing the hole walls. I've been told that cars with lug bolts instead of studs & nuts are more prone to centering problems with non-hubcentric wheels. The lugs seem to do a fine job of centering the wheel. I have no way of knowing whether the Honda or Mazda engineers designed the lugs to play a role in centering the wheel. But they do act to align the holes in the wheel with the studs, by virtue of the ball or tapered shape chosen for the lug nuts. Compare that to the square-shouldered shape used by Toyota, which provides no centering force.

 

There is no way you can possibly center a wheel on the car with 5 holes. The center hub is the best place to center the wheels. If the rings are correct they should be tight on the inside and outside.

 

And there is no way of knowing that, unless you have access to Honda's drawings or something.

Well sure, the extreme case being the lack of a centering ring. But "more accurate" doesn't mean "accurate enough."

Lucky.

I agree that if the centering rings don't fit well, then you might as well leave them off as far as attaining concentricity goes.

[QUOTE=Orthonormal,Nov 30 2005, 04:14 AM]
I've been told that cars with lug bolts instead of studs & nuts are more prone to centering problems with non-hubcentric wheels.