Why do you call them “second tier?” What do you mean by that?

So you are saying that Ferrari would put bad tires on their cars and hurt their performance and decrease sales because someone paid them money? Aren’t Ferraris rather expensive already?

 

I have Michelin PSS on my S2000. I like them as they grip really well but I have no point of comparison since they are the only tires I have run on my S2000. I felt the sidewalls on the PSS before mounting them and they are not particularly stiff. I also have felt the sidewalls on an unmounted Bridgestone Potenza S 04 and they feel MUCH stiffer as in more than twice as stiff as the Michelin's. I believe I wil try these for my next set of tires to see if it makes a difference. Hope this helps.

 

I understood your question I'm just not going to go into why your buddy from the bar who said Michelin tires are shit because of a soft sidewall is full of it. You just said you think it's an urban myth, one I've never heard before, but you are correct and answered your own question.

 

Michelin sport cup and ps4 are VERY different tires. No one except some crazy person is going around saying all Michelin tires suck because they lack sidewall stiffness.

It is the case however the PSS and PS4 aren't particularly stiff in tbe sidewall. On most cars thats a good thing (even the Ferrari that has these stock). It allows the tire to perform yet still not have a punishing ride. It takes a superior tire to perform even while its not harsh.

Its like suspension. A suspension that can perform without being harsh is superior. Its comparatively easy to make something that sacrifices comfort in orderto achieve performance.

So its an achievement Michelin should be very proud of.

That said, for several reasons, the S is a car that responds much better with tires with stiffer sidewalls. That go cart like agility is aided by the right tires. So much so that if tires that are way too wimpy are fitted, it doesn't just neuter the cars hadling to your average minivan such tires would normally be found on, it can make the cars handling downright spooky.

Its pretty much a given that as you go 'up' in summer tire performance categories, the sidewall stiffness goes up as well, as compared to 'normal' tires.

So long as you choose a summer performance tire, from any of the sub categories, you'll be fine for street use. Some prefer to enhance that hyper responsive steering feeling, so choose to go with something from the Extreme Performance Summer category, living with the compromises this often brings (more costly, shorter life, way more noise, harsher ride, potentially poor rain performance, etc). That is how much they value this aspect of driving their S.

Even though the PSS and PS4 aren't the stiffest sidewall in the Max Performance Summer category, many still find their responsiveness more than adequate on their S, and value all the other superior attributes of these tires.

They are great tires. All tires have compromises. You pick the ones whose compromises are in areas you don't value as much.

 

Because they have a single ply sidewall vs a two ply which is standard on the s2k with both the old ap1 s02 and the later Re50 and Re70 with the CR. If you want to maintain the sharp handling of the S2k you want a 2 ply sidewall tire. Single ply is for comfort. On a big wheel/low pro tire 18"+ you can get away with it more because there is far less sidewall and therefore deflection, but on a 16 and 17's in near factory s2k sizes you want a firm sidewall construction. Some summer tires have both single and two ply, and all extreme summers have two ply, and the Nittos Nt05 I run have 3, but they are more then exception.

Hope that clarifies things for you.

 

For just lively street driving you want to focus on tires that can handle rain well. A lot of extreme performance tires that are at the pointy end of the stick in terms of autox, for example may not fit that bill. So, the top tires for autox right now, are Yoko A052s, Bridgestone RE-71R's and Bridgestone Rival S. All are noisey and pretty much suck in the rain and are only so so when it is 60 degrees or cooler out. They also wear quickly (especially the stones and the yokes) so all in all, not what you probably want.

For tires that are a bit better in rain and cool, wear better, and have stiff, response sideways AND can handle some track day use if you decided to do that, the Falken RT615K+ and Hankook Ventus RS4s are probably not a bad choice. Still may not be as good in heavy rain though as some street tires are.

The PSS4's I know do very good in the rain compared to the tires above (They were a popular choice at spring nats when it was wet during STRs heat).

I know I am missing plenty of others as I typically focus on what works best for a track day and autocross. But if you want something for spritied road driving only, then make sure you pick something that is not rated horrible in wet or cool conditions. All summer tires will be garbage in the cold, but by cool I mean 50-60F.

 

I would put the old tried and true Nitto nt05 in that group as well. All out track grip is going to be slightly less then these modern compounds, but they excel in everything else.

 

Actually, those tires are *amazing* in the rain. I ran RE71R on the BRZ and in the pouring rain at Palmer and again at Watkins Glen I was able to catch faster-class cars on Hoosier wets. Which got enough attention that classification points were added to them this year for COMSCC time trials. This year on A052s on the Cayman in the pouring rain at Mont Tremblant I was 2nd fastest in the wettest practice session.
In both of those cases the tires were fairly new and near full tread depth, but that was only 6/32" with the Yoks...
They're also both totally fine in cool weather. Maybe not at freezing temps but certainly to well below 60F.

This is the truth. they are 200treadwear tires in name only. The Yoks in particular, they were only good for 4 track days, or 4 track hours for me. Front tread started separating at the edges! The Bridgestones wear down fast too but at least are usable for some time as slicks (not good in standing water at the point of course!) after tread is worn down.

I seriously doubt those tires will hold a candle to RE71R and A052 in the rain or in cool temps. They should last a lot longer though, particularly the RS4..

I've regularly streeted on extreme performance and even DOT R-comps in temps down to near freezing. The old RS3 version 1s were the worst but even they weren't that terrible, I ran them on the S2000 at Mosport at 36F in the rain, not bad after a single warmup lap.. NT01s, RE71Rs, A052s, IMO not really an issue in cool temps well below 50.

 

@kissthepilot "Why do you call them €œsecond tier? € What do you mean by that?"

Because they are. Got nothing do do with Michelin putting tires on Ferraris which is more likely either a sponsorship or lowest bidder.

I'm assuming you're looking for performance. In the world of street tires there are several performance tiers: (1) Extreme, (2) Max, (3) Ultra performance summer tires in descending performance order. The Michelin PS4s are Max Performance Summer tires -- second tier. As are the Bridgestone S-04 tires currently on my car. The Extremes will offer higher performance at the cost of tread noise and wear. I ran Extreme tires up to a couple years ago when I tired of tread noise and skipped the latest darling, the Bridgestone RE-71R tires.

"Best" as far as brand names are concerned is often based on old data. Witness FYWS (F-You, We're Sony) living on a mediocre performance history.

Sidewall stiffness determines the car's ability to react to steering wheel input (as well as other side loads). Stiffer sidewalls have more immediate input. Lower profile tiers have less sidewall and can be stiffer with the same construction.

-- Chuck

 

I don’t have any buddies at bars but thanks for noticing! I’m talking about people who sell tires and fill Airline Pilots That run real track cars on their off time. They keep telling me they don’t like my tires and I don’t know why. Perhaps I should just keep my tire choice private because I really don’t care what they think. If you don’t know the answer to the question you could just admit that, no need to cover it up with bluster.

Thanks for all the real answers.