Michelin Tires..
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,863
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From: Pawtucket, RI
3 seconds off the pace vs. ZII and 1.5 seconds off the Mich PSS over a ~1 minute lap. In 2013... Unless NItto improved the compound at some point, they should be that much slower vs. RE71R and MPS4S. And only 7/32 tread depth when new, with broad tread blocks and only two water channels, so they're not going to have much in the way of hydroplaning resistance, not for long anyway.
Hard to find data on it, but at 1010 no one rates them highly for wet grip: https://www.1010tires.com/Tires/Reviews/Nitto/NT05?px=4
NT05 looks cool as hell, but there were much better options for street or track in 2013, and much MUCH better options today.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,863
Likes: 125
From: Pawtucket, RI
I have a set of Michelin pilot super sport tires and I’m thinking of upgrading the wheels and going to some wider 4 S Michelin‘s. Every time I talk to people though they said the sidewall strength is not that great. Why do they say this? Is there an objective way of checking it? Why would Ferrari use their tires then? I actually drove a friends as 2000 and liked them before I bought the super sports. Which tires do you think are better and why?
The "Extreme Performance" category tires will generally offer more immediate responsiveness and ultimate grip, but at the expense of ride comfort, noise, tread life (particularly RE71R and A052), and hydroplaning resistance.
Personally I run Extreme Perf tires Spring thru Fall and switch to Winter tires for the cold/snowy months. But that's partly due to tracking and time-trialing.
You should look at Tire Rack test results and observations and customer reviews to get an idea of how specific tires compare with each other vs. what *you* want/need out of tires.
FWIW here's their test of the MPS4S vs. other Max-Perf tires:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=223
And current crop of Extreme Perf tires:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=242
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I dunno... Cars with great wet grip pretty much always have excellent dry grip as well, and the NT05 was way down on dry grip relative to Extreme and Max Perf tires of yesteryear: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/the-...ar-tires-test/
3 seconds off the pace vs. ZII and 1.5 seconds off the Mich PSS over a ~1 minute lap. In 2013... Unless NItto improved the compound at some point, they should be that much slower vs. RE71R and MPS4S. And only 7/32 tread depth when new, with broad tread blocks and only two water channels, so they're not going to have much in the way of hydroplaning resistance, not for long anyway.
Hard to find data on it, but at 1010 no one rates them highly for wet grip: https://www.1010tires.com/Tires/Reviews/Nitto/NT05?px=4
NT05 looks cool as hell, but there were much better options for street or track in 2013, and much MUCH better options today.
3 seconds off the pace vs. ZII and 1.5 seconds off the Mich PSS over a ~1 minute lap. In 2013... Unless NItto improved the compound at some point, they should be that much slower vs. RE71R and MPS4S. And only 7/32 tread depth when new, with broad tread blocks and only two water channels, so they're not going to have much in the way of hydroplaning resistance, not for long anyway.
Hard to find data on it, but at 1010 no one rates them highly for wet grip: https://www.1010tires.com/Tires/Reviews/Nitto/NT05?px=4
NT05 looks cool as hell, but there were much better options for street or track in 2013, and much MUCH better options today.
Last edited by s2000Junky; Aug 24, 2019 at 09:56 AM.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 213
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From: Knoxville, TN
I couldn't agree more. Everything you buy for a car is a compromise. If I want a no-compromise car, I would have to build one from a kit. But, I just want a fun car that people sometimes notice
and is a bit unusual. I bought the S not knowing it would become that, I just liked driving it. I didn't even know Honda made a sports car, after starting as a kid with honda minibikes, and driving them
for decades.
I like the performance of the PSS tires and just want something with a bit more grip. I want a decent ride with decent handling. I put some goodyear tires on the car once, after getting recommendations from this site, and it drove like a Buick. Had to return them and bought the PSS's after driving one at a club meeting. I loved them and still do.
Now I'm updating the car to modern standard and wanted to put aftermarket wheels and wider, and better tires on her. I think the Cup is my first choice.
Thanks for the help!
Eric
and is a bit unusual. I bought the S not knowing it would become that, I just liked driving it. I didn't even know Honda made a sports car, after starting as a kid with honda minibikes, and driving them
for decades.
I like the performance of the PSS tires and just want something with a bit more grip. I want a decent ride with decent handling. I put some goodyear tires on the car once, after getting recommendations from this site, and it drove like a Buick. Had to return them and bought the PSS's after driving one at a club meeting. I loved them and still do.
Now I'm updating the car to modern standard and wanted to put aftermarket wheels and wider, and better tires on her. I think the Cup is my first choice.
Thanks for the help!
Eric
Michelin sport cup and ps4 are VERY different tires. No one except some crazy person is going around saying all Michelin tires suck because they lack sidewall stiffness.
It is the case however the PSS and PS4 aren't particularly stiff in tbe sidewall. On most cars thats a good thing (even the Ferrari that has these stock). It allows the tire to perform yet still not have a punishing ride. It takes a superior tire to perform even while its not harsh.
Its like suspension. A suspension that can perform without being harsh is superior. Its comparatively easy to make something that sacrifices comfort in orderto achieve performance.
So its an achievement Michelin should be very proud of.
That said, for several reasons, the S is a car that responds much better with tires with stiffer sidewalls. That go cart like agility is aided by the right tires. So much so that if tires that are way too wimpy are fitted, it doesn't just neuter the cars hadling to your average minivan such tires would normally be found on, it can make the cars handling downright spooky.
Its pretty much a given that as you go 'up' in summer tire performance categories, the sidewall stiffness goes up as well, as compared to 'normal' tires.
So long as you choose a summer performance tire, from any of the sub categories, you'll be fine for street use. Some prefer to enhance that hyper responsive steering feeling, so choose to go with something from the Extreme Performance Summer category, living with the compromises this often brings (more costly, shorter life, way more noise, harsher ride, potentially poor rain performance, etc). That is how much they value this aspect of driving their S.
Even though the PSS and PS4 aren't the stiffest sidewall in the Max Performance Summer category, many still find their responsiveness more than adequate on their S, and value all the other superior attributes of these tires.
They are great tires. All tires have compromises. You pick the ones whose compromises are in areas you don't value as much.
It is the case however the PSS and PS4 aren't particularly stiff in tbe sidewall. On most cars thats a good thing (even the Ferrari that has these stock). It allows the tire to perform yet still not have a punishing ride. It takes a superior tire to perform even while its not harsh.
Its like suspension. A suspension that can perform without being harsh is superior. Its comparatively easy to make something that sacrifices comfort in orderto achieve performance.
So its an achievement Michelin should be very proud of.
That said, for several reasons, the S is a car that responds much better with tires with stiffer sidewalls. That go cart like agility is aided by the right tires. So much so that if tires that are way too wimpy are fitted, it doesn't just neuter the cars hadling to your average minivan such tires would normally be found on, it can make the cars handling downright spooky.
Its pretty much a given that as you go 'up' in summer tire performance categories, the sidewall stiffness goes up as well, as compared to 'normal' tires.
So long as you choose a summer performance tire, from any of the sub categories, you'll be fine for street use. Some prefer to enhance that hyper responsive steering feeling, so choose to go with something from the Extreme Performance Summer category, living with the compromises this often brings (more costly, shorter life, way more noise, harsher ride, potentially poor rain performance, etc). That is how much they value this aspect of driving their S.
Even though the PSS and PS4 aren't the stiffest sidewall in the Max Performance Summer category, many still find their responsiveness more than adequate on their S, and value all the other superior attributes of these tires.
They are great tires. All tires have compromises. You pick the ones whose compromises are in areas you don't value as much.
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 213
Likes: 5
From: Knoxville, TN
Hi,
Those test articles on the Tire Rack website were very helpful. Thanks for the assistance!
Eric
Those test articles on the Tire Rack website were very helpful. Thanks for the assistance!
Eric
"Better" depends entirely on usage envelope and driver preference. As a street tire with a lot of dry and wet grip and halfway decent treadlife, you'd be hard pressed to do better than the MPS4S. Conti ExtremeContact Sport would be another option.
The "Extreme Performance" category tires will generally offer more immediate responsiveness and ultimate grip, but at the expense of ride comfort, noise, tread life (particularly RE71R and A052), and hydroplaning resistance.
Personally I run Extreme Perf tires Spring thru Fall and switch to Winter tires for the cold/snowy months. But that's partly due to tracking and time-trialing.
You should look at Tire Rack test results and observations and customer reviews to get an idea of how specific tires compare with each other vs. what *you* want/need out of tires.
FWIW here's their test of the MPS4S vs. other Max-Perf tires:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=223
And current crop of Extreme Perf tires:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=242
The "Extreme Performance" category tires will generally offer more immediate responsiveness and ultimate grip, but at the expense of ride comfort, noise, tread life (particularly RE71R and A052), and hydroplaning resistance.
Personally I run Extreme Perf tires Spring thru Fall and switch to Winter tires for the cold/snowy months. But that's partly due to tracking and time-trialing.
You should look at Tire Rack test results and observations and customer reviews to get an idea of how specific tires compare with each other vs. what *you* want/need out of tires.
FWIW here's their test of the MPS4S vs. other Max-Perf tires:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=223
And current crop of Extreme Perf tires:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=242
Thread Starter
Registered User
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 213
Likes: 5
From: Knoxville, TN
18" Wheels?
I found a great deal on some 18" wheels and I was wondering about the harshness of the ride. I also have a concern about bending one, since the tire will be lower profile and
a good bump could dent one. I like the fact that a shorter sidewall will be less flexible, so I'm willing to give up some ride comfort for more grip. The Civic Type R has 20" wheels, and
I'm only going up an inch. I was also thinking it would be lighter, since the tire has a lot of weight. I also want bigger brakes, and a larger wheel will fit larger
brakes. Thanks!
Any comments?
Thanks,
Eric
a good bump could dent one. I like the fact that a shorter sidewall will be less flexible, so I'm willing to give up some ride comfort for more grip. The Civic Type R has 20" wheels, and
I'm only going up an inch. I was also thinking it would be lighter, since the tire has a lot of weight. I also want bigger brakes, and a larger wheel will fit larger
brakes. Thanks!
Any comments?
Thanks,
Eric
Last edited by kissthepilot; Aug 26, 2019 at 10:37 PM. Reason: forgot something
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 13,829
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From: Chesterfield VA
I've seen little evidence that 18" wheels and tires offer any performance improvements and non-OEM wheels frequently require buggering the fenders due to offsets. Likewise "bigger brakes" seem unnecessary unless you're tracking the car. Tires remain the critical item and putting max-performance Michelin PSS tires on 18" wheels will still be inferior to a set of extreme performance Bridgestone RE-71R tires which provide all the handling (and braking) you need. Put a set of RE-71R tires on the car and run them until worn out before making "improvements." And 18" "rims" will require a sound system blasting rap music to complete the styling.
Light weight wheels/tires is over-thinking unless you want to reduce your lap times by fractions of a second and are blaming them for your performance. It's like golf where we all know it ain't us, it's our clubs so we keep buying new clubs and remain puzzled which our stroke count doesn't change. In any skilled event (driving, golf, shooting, aerobatics) it really is us.
Want to get better? Spend the money on professional training and leave the equipment alone for now other than extreme performance tires.
-- Chuck
Light weight wheels/tires is over-thinking unless you want to reduce your lap times by fractions of a second and are blaming them for your performance. It's like golf where we all know it ain't us, it's our clubs so we keep buying new clubs and remain puzzled which our stroke count doesn't change. In any skilled event (driving, golf, shooting, aerobatics) it really is us.
Want to get better? Spend the money on professional training and leave the equipment alone for now other than extreme performance tires.-- Chuck
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Actually, those tires are *amazing* in the rain. I ran RE71R on the BRZ and in the pouring rain at Palmer and again at Watkins Glen I was able to catch faster-class cars on Hoosier wets. Which got enough attention that classification points were added to them this year for COMSCC time trials. This year on A052s on the Cayman in the pouring rain at Mont Tremblant I was 2nd fastest in the wettest practice session.
In both of those cases the tires were fairly new and near full tread depth, but that was only 6/32" with the Yoks...
They're also both totally fine in cool weather. Maybe not at freezing temps but certainly to well below 60F.
This is the truth. they are 200treadwear tires in name only. The Yoks in particular, they were only good for 4 track days, or 4 track hours for me. Front tread started separating at the edges! The Bridgestones wear down fast too but at least are usable for some time as slicks (not good in standing water at the point of course!) after tread is worn down.
I seriously doubt those tires will hold a candle to RE71R and A052 in the rain or in cool temps. They should last a lot longer though, particularly the RS4..
I've regularly streeted on extreme performance and even DOT R-comps in temps down to near freezing. The old RS3 version 1s were the worst but even they weren't that terrible, I ran them on the S2000 at Mosport at 36F in the rain, not bad after a single warmup lap.. NT01s, RE71Rs, A052s, IMO not really an issue in cool temps well below 50.
In both of those cases the tires were fairly new and near full tread depth, but that was only 6/32" with the Yoks...
They're also both totally fine in cool weather. Maybe not at freezing temps but certainly to well below 60F.
This is the truth. they are 200treadwear tires in name only. The Yoks in particular, they were only good for 4 track days, or 4 track hours for me. Front tread started separating at the edges! The Bridgestones wear down fast too but at least are usable for some time as slicks (not good in standing water at the point of course!) after tread is worn down.
I seriously doubt those tires will hold a candle to RE71R and A052 in the rain or in cool temps. They should last a lot longer though, particularly the RS4..
I've regularly streeted on extreme performance and even DOT R-comps in temps down to near freezing. The old RS3 version 1s were the worst but even they weren't that terrible, I ran them on the S2000 at Mosport at 36F in the rain, not bad after a single warmup lap.. NT01s, RE71Rs, A052s, IMO not really an issue in cool temps well below 50.
The stones may be "amazing: in the wet to you in relation to other tires in its class, but all of those tires are generally worse in the rain compared to something like the PSS4 (Which was the wet tire of choice at spring nationals by the fast drivers in STR). And that autox application is not a bad measure of street performance since you have the same issue of the tires never getting up to the temps they do on track. So for people like you, I and many others on here, the Stones are great because of the time we spend using them on course or on track, but for someone looknig for a good street tire, they will be less amazing overall when everything is factored in. This also shows in the customer reviews, since I would be that a large percentage of people running Stones, A052's, etc run them on track or for autocross and that skews the opinions.
I personally have a set of Falkens sitting here to mount up. My S2k is not seeing much autox right now since I am codriving a different car this year, and for track night events I am tired of chewing through a set of stones every few events (3 track night in america events on a short track and 3 autox events and are near slick at this point) , vs others I know on Falkens getting much longer lives out of them in the same usage. Then add in the much lower cost and I can deal with slightly lower lap times at an HPDE just fine :P Oh.. and for the record, nearly gone RE71R's (like 2/32 or so) are downright terrifying in hard rain. Got caught in a monsoon style rain on the way back from the last track night on mine and basically was driving on 4 rudderless skis lol
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,863
Likes: 125
From: Pawtucket, RI
The stones may be "amazing: in the wet to you in relation to other tires in its class, but all of those tires are generally worse in the rain compared to something like the PSS4 (Which was the wet tire of choice at spring nationals by the fast drivers in STR).
Yoko A052s, Bridgestone RE-71R's and Bridgestone Rival S. All are noisey and pretty much suck in the rain and are only so so when it is 60 degrees or cooler out. They also wear quickly (especially the stones and the yokes) so all in all, not what you probably want.
For tires that are a bit better in rain and cool, wear better, and have stiff, response sideways AND can handle some track day use if you decided to do that, the Falken RT615K+ and Hankook Ventus RS4s are probably not a bad choice.
For tires that are a bit better in rain and cool, wear better, and have stiff, response sideways AND can handle some track day use if you decided to do that, the Falken RT615K+ and Hankook Ventus RS4s are probably not a bad choice.
And the Falken or the RS4 are not *better* in the rain vs. RE71R and A052. I'm pretty certain the RE71R and A052 in fact have substantially more wet grip. Tire Rack tests:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=234 RE71R markedly faster wet lap time vs. RT615K+ and RS4
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=242 RE71R and A052 have similar wet lap times, markedly faster vs. Rival and ZIII (ZIII slightly better wet performance vs. Falken and Hankook in the other test)
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=223 PS4S has similar wet laptimes to RE71R and A052 (same car, but on different test days so can't make absolute direct comparison, but in same ballpark...)
Not that I think the RE71R and A052 make great street tires for most people, they don't! But for sure, with some tread depth, they don't "suck in the rain", quite the contrary, and they also get up to temp very quickly and aren't bothered by cooler temps in my experience.
Oh.. and for the record, nearly gone RE71R's (like 2/32 or so) are downright terrifying in hard rain. Got caught in a monsoon style rain on the way back from the last track night on mine and basically was driving on 4 rudderless skis lol
Max Performance tires like the PS4S and Conti ExtremeContact Sport are still going to give very good handling feel while having other benefits like longer life and a lot better hydroplaning resistance over standing water, and make a lot more sense for street-only...
Thread Starter
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 213
Likes: 5
From: Knoxville, TN
thanks
Thanks for the response. When you say you'd be hard pressed to do better than the MPS4S, is that the Michelin tire? I'm sorry but I work with a lot of codes, but sometimes need regular English
when it's something I'm not familiar with.
In aviation we have a lot of codes and most people don't know what we're talking about. So, when I'm talking to a non-pilot, I don't use them. One friend said we have far to many "TLA's" in
this business. I asked him what that was, he said, "Three Letter Acronyms!"
Lol,
Thanks
when it's something I'm not familiar with.
In aviation we have a lot of codes and most people don't know what we're talking about. So, when I'm talking to a non-pilot, I don't use them. One friend said we have far to many "TLA's" in
this business. I asked him what that was, he said, "Three Letter Acronyms!"
Lol,
Thanks
"Better" depends entirely on usage envelope and driver preference. As a street tire with a lot of dry and wet grip and halfway decent treadlife, you'd be hard pressed to do better than the MPS4S. Conti ExtremeContact Sport would be another option.
The "Extreme Performance" category tires will generally offer more immediate responsiveness and ultimate grip, but at the expense of ride comfort, noise, tread life (particularly RE71R and A052), and hydroplaning resistance.
Personally I run Extreme Perf tires Spring thru Fall and switch to Winter tires for the cold/snowy months. But that's partly due to tracking and time-trialing.
You should look at Tire Rack test results and observations and customer reviews to get an idea of how specific tires compare with each other vs. what *you* want/need out of tires.
FWIW here's their test of the MPS4S vs. other Max-Perf tires:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=223
And current crop of Extreme Perf tires:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=242
The "Extreme Performance" category tires will generally offer more immediate responsiveness and ultimate grip, but at the expense of ride comfort, noise, tread life (particularly RE71R and A052), and hydroplaning resistance.
Personally I run Extreme Perf tires Spring thru Fall and switch to Winter tires for the cold/snowy months. But that's partly due to tracking and time-trialing.
You should look at Tire Rack test results and observations and customer reviews to get an idea of how specific tires compare with each other vs. what *you* want/need out of tires.
FWIW here's their test of the MPS4S vs. other Max-Perf tires:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=223
And current crop of Extreme Perf tires:
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests...y.jsp?ttid=242