New rule: car buyers to be told about black boxes
08-21-2006, 11:33 AM
#1
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New rule: car buyers to be told about black boxes
About damn time! I can't believe your OWN car could sell you out in an accident. I really think the 5th amendment would be violated in that case. Your property should be held to a similar standard to self incriminating statements.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/08/21/event_...rule/index.html
New rule: Car buyers must be told about 'black boxes'
Rule will also require a uniform set of data be recorded, making it easier to use.
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has passed a regulation requiring car makers to inform customers when their car has been equipped with an Event Data Recorder, the agency said Monday.
EDRs, similar to "black boxes" used in commercial airliners, record data about what a car is doing in the moments just before and after a crash. They do not record the voices of occupants but they do record things like speed, steering wheel movement, how hard the brakes are being pressed and the actual movement of the car itself.
About 65 percent of model year 2005 cars were equipped with EDRs, according to NHTSA. Data from the recorders is used by law enforcement and attorneys to recreate events leading up to an accident. Data is also used by car companies to research how cars and drivers perform in actual crashes.
Some privacy advocates have expressed concern that the data, which can be used as evidence in court cases, is being collected without the knowledge of vehicle owners and drivers.
Several states have already passed laws that restrict how the data can be used.
Car companies must comply with the new regulation beginning in the 2011 model year. Information about the EDR, if one is installed, will have to be included in the vehicle's owner's manual.
The new rule also requires EDRs to collect a uniform set of data. Having access to uniform data will help investigators to recreate crashes and determine causes, the agency said.
More-uniform data will also make it easier to develop systems so that, in cars equipped with automatic 911 emergency notification, data about the crash can also be passed along to paramedics and ambulance crews.
The data can also be used to research better road designs and ways to better protect young and old drivers, said Robert Sinclair, a spokesman for the New York chapter of AAA.
AAA had previously expressed concern to NHTSA about privacy issues that might hamper public acceptance of the systems. Those concerns seem to be addressed by the new rule, Sinclair said.
Report: Rules to make roofs stronger rile automakers
http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/08/21/event_...rule/index.html
New rule: Car buyers must be told about 'black boxes'
Rule will also require a uniform set of data be recorded, making it easier to use.
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has passed a regulation requiring car makers to inform customers when their car has been equipped with an Event Data Recorder, the agency said Monday.
EDRs, similar to "black boxes" used in commercial airliners, record data about what a car is doing in the moments just before and after a crash. They do not record the voices of occupants but they do record things like speed, steering wheel movement, how hard the brakes are being pressed and the actual movement of the car itself.
About 65 percent of model year 2005 cars were equipped with EDRs, according to NHTSA. Data from the recorders is used by law enforcement and attorneys to recreate events leading up to an accident. Data is also used by car companies to research how cars and drivers perform in actual crashes.
Some privacy advocates have expressed concern that the data, which can be used as evidence in court cases, is being collected without the knowledge of vehicle owners and drivers.
Several states have already passed laws that restrict how the data can be used.
Car companies must comply with the new regulation beginning in the 2011 model year. Information about the EDR, if one is installed, will have to be included in the vehicle's owner's manual.
The new rule also requires EDRs to collect a uniform set of data. Having access to uniform data will help investigators to recreate crashes and determine causes, the agency said.
More-uniform data will also make it easier to develop systems so that, in cars equipped with automatic 911 emergency notification, data about the crash can also be passed along to paramedics and ambulance crews.
The data can also be used to research better road designs and ways to better protect young and old drivers, said Robert Sinclair, a spokesman for the New York chapter of AAA.
AAA had previously expressed concern to NHTSA about privacy issues that might hamper public acceptance of the systems. Those concerns seem to be addressed by the new rule, Sinclair said.
Report: Rules to make roofs stronger rile automakers
08-21-2006, 11:47 AM
#3
One question: Can it be turned off? I know I would want that option, especially if I was driving a sports/sporty car. I'm with Corey - how is this not a violation of the 5th Amendment?
It's my property, my choice to let it be "searched" or to let it "talk", and so I figure it's also my right to turn it off/erase it.
It's my property, my choice to let it be "searched" or to let it "talk", and so I figure it's also my right to turn it off/erase it.
08-21-2006, 12:09 PM
#4
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Like anything else, if this is used, "right" then I have no problem with it. I can see this as a valuable tool in making cars safer and perform better in accidents, but I can also see the problems of privacy.
However there are a lot of interesting ethical questions. Does our property have rights? Does it have rights on public roads? In an accident do you forfeit those rights?
Perhaps a special "warrant" would be needed to obtain the information on the box?
Or data collection would only "record" during an accident. Meaning during an impact it would store in memory only the last 20 seconds prior to the crash.
It would always be "recording" in RAM, but for those 20 seconds prior it would record to a HD, your movements, reaction times, etc. Making it less intrusive.
I dunno, it sounds very interesting either way...
However there are a lot of interesting ethical questions. Does our property have rights? Does it have rights on public roads? In an accident do you forfeit those rights?
Perhaps a special "warrant" would be needed to obtain the information on the box?
Or data collection would only "record" during an accident. Meaning during an impact it would store in memory only the last 20 seconds prior to the crash.
It would always be "recording" in RAM, but for those 20 seconds prior it would record to a HD, your movements, reaction times, etc. Making it less intrusive.
I dunno, it sounds very interesting either way...
08-21-2006, 12:12 PM
#5
Thread Starter
IheartS2ks,
That last 20 seconds is what I would be worried about. What if I was speeding? What if I was going 70 in a 60mph? What is the other party's attorney could subpenoa my black box? They could prove I was breaking the law and while the pulled out in front of me or swerved into my lane, it could end up being 'my' fault.
That last 20 seconds is what I would be worried about. What if I was speeding? What if I was going 70 in a 60mph? What is the other party's attorney could subpenoa my black box? They could prove I was breaking the law and while the pulled out in front of me or swerved into my lane, it could end up being 'my' fault.
08-21-2006, 12:16 PM
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I agree with you that I don't want that stuff released. I suppose it should be like obtaining incriminating evidence about you from your own computer. Should take a warrant to get to. I also think you should be permitted to turn the thing off. If they don't equip them with off buttons, then you should be able to rig it, if you have the know-how, and not get into trouble if they find out.
Although in some ways, big brother in our cars may make some aspects of driving safer, I'm not ready for the possible abuses that could come right along with that.
Although in some ways, big brother in our cars may make some aspects of driving safer, I'm not ready for the possible abuses that could come right along with that.
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08-21-2006, 12:32 PM
#9
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I think the black box thing is only trouble when it comes to privacy. Someone will try and bring up cases like this:
http://www.crash-data-retrieval-system.com...ews_011305.html
But, what on earth do you need a black box to figure out what happened here? I do see it working both ways though. I sure would be nice if someone claimed you were speeding to be able to prove totally you weren't. Overall, like on most privacy issues I side with being more private over less private. Every once in a while it will bite you, but overall I'm for more freedom not less.
As far as the 5th amendment, the way I read it, everyone or everything has the right to incriminate you. You are the only one who has the right to not incriminate yourself.
For example, if you have a security system on your property and it catches you do something illegal I am pretty sure the state or federal officials have the right to subpoena those tapes as evidence against you.
http://www.crash-data-retrieval-system.com...ews_011305.html
But, what on earth do you need a black box to figure out what happened here? I do see it working both ways though. I sure would be nice if someone claimed you were speeding to be able to prove totally you weren't. Overall, like on most privacy issues I side with being more private over less private. Every once in a while it will bite you, but overall I'm for more freedom not less.
As far as the 5th amendment, the way I read it, everyone or everything has the right to incriminate you. You are the only one who has the right to not incriminate yourself.
For example, if you have a security system on your property and it catches you do something illegal I am pretty sure the state or federal officials have the right to subpoena those tapes as evidence against you.
08-21-2006, 01:21 PM
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The scary part is that you may be judged in front of a jury of your peers, and think of how shitty a driver your average peer is.
"So, Mr. Stack, I see you were going around a turn at 40mph, and it was rainy, and you started to fishtail but you didn't lift off the accelerator. Everyone knows you are supposed to hit the brakes, why didn't you??"
"So, Mr. Stack, I see you were going around a turn at 40mph, and it was rainy, and you started to fishtail but you didn't lift off the accelerator. Everyone knows you are supposed to hit the brakes, why didn't you??"