In response to a thread about a totaled AP1, our member CKit said “Try to listen to the car and traction available rather than assuming you have the grip you would normally have under perfect conditions. Road conditions, car conditions, weather, etc. change from day to day. I frequently hear people comment that they “didn’t take a turn too fast,” but spun out. But then in pictures, there was some gravel, a little dip or something else that made a turn be “too fast” in actuality.” These words could not have come at a more appropriate time and apply to AP2 drivers as well. In short it means that we have to drive informed, empowered by our knowledge of the car and the road conditions unfolding before our eyes.
Another recent thread in S2000 Talk also points to total vehicle damage possibly caused by tire condition and wet weather. Two recent damage threads, both featuring AP1s, could lead some to think that the AP1 is a widow maker, but the inquisitive mind would ask, how then did it survive all those years in the hands of the owner without getting wrecked? We think the answer lies in the fact that as the car gets cheaper, more people (possibly younger) can afford to purchase it and several of them seem to be coming from driving front-wheel drive (FWD) vehicles. A FWD car will never quite have the oversteer characteristics of a rear-wheel drive (RWD) car. One has to be highly skilled or incredibly unskilled to get the rear of a FWD car to step out. A RWD car, especially a car like the S2000, demands a more attentive driver that listens and responds to the car’s feedback. On sunny and warm days, the tires grip better and the car can be a joy to drive, but when the conditions are inclement, the road conditions suspect and the temps a lot cooler, it won’t take much to crash the car. To sum it up, it is easier to drive a FWD car at 10/10ths than it is to drive the S2000 at 7/10ths and any attempt to drive beyond one’s limits will likely result in tragic consequences.
Temperatures have started dropping as autumn sets in and the condition of roads, especially in portions of the northeast, is suspect owing to heavy rainfall. Corners have become gravel traps and a loaded suspension could easily lose traction and slide off the asphalt all the more so when driving a vehicle that sends power to the rear wheels. So let us assure you that there is no shame if you wanted to drive like a grandma.
Several of the original owners who purchased the S2000 grew up driving RWD vehicles that lacked very many driving aids. It was probably their age and the skills they possessed that ensured that they kept the car in one piece. Contrast that to some of our newer members that graduate from a Civic or a Subaru, both of which lack the characteristics that would help them understand the dynamics of RWD. Often we see younger members ridiculed for their mistakes, but can we really hold them responsible for growing up driving FWD cars and assuming that what is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander, not realizing that the S2000 is no gander but more like a snake.
Like our original members, our younger members too have a responsibility to keep the tradition of the S2000 going and must recognize that the torch has been passed on to them. This tradition will keep going as long as we stay alive, stay healthy and keep driving the car. In order to do that, it is imperative that we learn how the car behaves and develop an understanding of what our limit is. If not, road conditions and the car will conspire to teach us a harsh lesson.
A tire depth gauge as well as a tire pressure gauge can be purchased for not a lot of money and will go a long way towards keeping you informed about the condition of your tires. It would also help for one to learn about the tires they have on their car. Newer members buying the car would do good to log on to Tire Rack or the Wheels and Tires Forum and read the specifications and reviews about the tires on their car. In addition, they must also compare their tire to the OEM S-02s to see how the tires on the car stack up. The car we all drive is such that even a slight change in tire pressure can yield a significant difference in handling. Being informed and knowledgeable about your car and its tires will not only keep the car by your side, but also make you a better driver. Professional race car drivers are fast not only because they possess certain skills, but also because they have a keen eye for the conditions and an intrinsic knowledge about the setup of their car. Equipped with that knowledge they know where they can push the car and when they should back off. The S2000 calls for that kind of commitment from us and we hope you will commit to it unless you value your insurance payout a lot more than the joy of owning and driving the car.
We hope you will take the extra effort and drive informed going forward. Let us pledge to keep our car out of the Official Accident Thread. Are you game for this?
Related Links:
Tire Maintenance and Safety Manual
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on Sep 16th, 2011 at 10:15 pm
Great post.
on Sep 16th, 2011 at 10:26 pm
Knowledge is power. Skills is power. Live and learn. Don’t get it over your head thinking you know all that’s to know about driving. Had my license for over 20 years, and i’m still learning new tricks from day to day.
on Sep 16th, 2011 at 10:32 pm
Excellent read.
on Sep 16th, 2011 at 10:43 pm
Out of all the vehicles i’ve owned the S2000 is the least forgiving especially when weather conditions are less than optimal. Know your car’s limitations and be aware of yours as a driver.
on Sep 16th, 2011 at 11:26 pm
Driven sensibly with respect for the conditions, it’s no less safe than any other car. Plenty of people ( myself included) have come from FWD and drive the S2000 all year round and in all conditions.
Remember to leave a bigger margin for YOUR mistakes and you’ll be fine.
Oh and we really need to dispel the myth that winter tyres are only for snowy conditions – the level of ignorance regarding this is both scary and amusing.
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 1:30 am
Great article aashish. I really enjoy your writing.
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 1:33 am
Out of all the cars I’ve owned the S2000 is the most assuring.
What I mean is that in any condition – and this includes snow & ice – you feel what the car is doing.
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 3:47 am
“Another recent thread in S2000 Talk also points to total vehicle damage possibly caused by tire condition and wet weather?” – That thread is mine and total loss due to to wet weather/tire conditions was not the case, it was flood-like conditions that perpetuated the end of my beloved S2000(A car the genuinely meant the world to me, a car I planed to keep my entire life). This was a unique incident. Next time I’d appreciate some notice before using a picture of mine, There is supposed to be a story to go with that picture as that is how I intended it to be posted which is why it was posted only in the Thread it was in.
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 3:56 am
This is why I firmly believe that every S2000 owner needs to autocross their car at least once in order to safely explore the limits of their car and understand what you feel just before the rear breaks loose and more appropriately, how to react when it does happen. Rookie drivers coming from FWD or AWD have a tendency to mash the gas when the rear comes out which works in that configuration because it creates understeer. In our car, you will find yourself looping around very quickly.
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 7:19 am
I think this article missed an opportunity to promote an important learning venue to its audience – autocross or track. Failing either of those, I’d recommend an empty parking lot. It’s easier to recognize the warning signs of exceeding the limits of adhesion if one actually does it (for that, a controlled environment is required).
The broad message is the reminder to always be aware of ‘the conditions’ – the *variables* which determine ‘the limits’.
Although, Froth, I’m sympathetic to your loss as well as the complaint you registered above, the broad message does encompass your scenario. You mentioned two things in your write-up: you were in a hurry (to beat the rain) and you changed lanes when all hell broke loose. Please don’t read that as an accusatory comment that your wreck was all your fault; it was not intended as such. Hindsight is 20/20 – I bet if your top had not been down, you’d still have that gorgeous car. You were nailed by ‘the conditions’ (again, sorry and glad you’re okay), but some choices also factored into the event. C’est la vie. It’s something we *all* have in common.
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 8:21 am
“We think the answer lies in the fact that as the car gets cheaper, more people (possibly younger) can afford to purchase it” …. Shortly after I bought mine, I was picking my daughter up from volleyball camp, as I was getting into my car a women next to me asked me about the car. She asked how I liked it, then she informed me that she’s thinking of buying her 15 yr old son one for his first car. I told her “I wouldn’t” and her reply was “I thought Honda’s were reliable”, in which I replied “it’s not that, you might as well hand him a loaded handgun, cause he’ll have it wrapped around a tree in the first month”
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 8:47 am
I never said I was in a hurry, don’t get me wrong I knew the situation was urgent – I was doing 10mph BELOW the posted speed limit in rush hour traffic in an absolute out of nowhere Deluge of rain. I changed lanes and settled into the lane(not mid change) when the rear came out due to hydroplaning. If I could have done anything, Be sure that I would have. Situations arise that are out of our control and my beloved S2000 just happened to be the sad sacrifice to keep me alive, I’ll take that any day.
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 9:36 am
Great article!
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 10:47 am
Nice article. Thanks for taking a sensible tone and not flaming peopel for their mistaks
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 11:34 am
@Froth. – Sorry if you felt misrepresented. Your pic has been removed. Never my intent to make an example of you or anyone else which is why no identities were revealed in the story.
@kpc06bb – Thank you for understanding what I was trying to say. Autocross and HPDE’s have been recommended so many times in the past that I felt making a mention would be akin to flogging a dead horse. I think people should be more situationally aware when they are driving the S2000 anywhere and that was the point I was trying to make. Most crash threads recount incidents that happen on public streets and not on a closed circuit. People may be more lax thinking that because the average speed on the street is slower, they will never meet with an accident which is not true.
To everyone else – Thanks for your comments. My hope and that of the news team is to ensure that people and their machines stay together. People have said that the article is being unfair to newer owners and that older people make mistakes as well. While that is true, it is heart-rending to see someone young lose their car within months of purchasing it and more often than not, it is someone in their teens or early twenties that is posting a thread about a damaged vehicle. The intent is not to bash them, but to welcome them to the fold and emphasize that driving an S2000 is equal parts responsibility and fun. If this story has failed in doing that, we’ll try to do a better job next time.
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 12:50 pm
This definitely was one of the better articles I have had the privilege to read.
Having been one of those that owned a Civic for nearly 10 years and having gotten used to how I could push the vehicle to it’s limits, moving to an AP1 was foreign to me. I spun out my first in the rain, while merging lanes. I was 10-15 MPH under the speed limit, and I was merging into a slower to allow the cars behind me to get around me. While merging, the rear end, I encountered an uneven patch of road, causing the back end to get out from under me. My car bumped a car two lanes over on my right into the right shoulder and my car pinballed off of that vehicle and went right back into the far left lane short of the carpool lane where there was another vehicle that had not expect that to happen. That car slammed into me.
I never found out how serious their injuries were, other than that my auto insurance had settled with their litigation teams. End result, I hope they have had a full recovery. There was a lot of irony in the incident. The car that I first bounced off of when the rear end got out from me, I had slowed down to let him merge over 5 miles back because of the weather conditions. I had checked my car’s tire conditions a few weeks back and saw that they looked fine, but inspecting them after the accident, they were not fine enough. Even with being significantly slower than the posted speed limits, that sometimes is NOT enough of a buffer.
Less than two months later, I was in another AP1, same year, from the same used car dealership. I took a road trip with my brother to NorCal a few months later in April. When we left to NorCal, the weather was great. Arriving at my friend’s house, I inspected the tire’s wear after the drive and saw that they were horribly worn. They would be fine for dry weather, but past experience has taught me that it would not be safe for moderate rains. Sure enough, two day later, it was raining cats and dogs. I mean, HORRIBLE RAIN. We were leaving San Jose and driving back to Orange County. That was the longest, (and my brother argues, most focused driving he’s ever seen me do), slowest, and careful driving I have ever done. It took me 5 hours to get half way home. I was going 35 MPH in the slow lane, with my hazards on the entire time (people still road my ass in the storm). The first Wal-Mart we arrived at, which was in Arroyo Grande, I had them replace the horribly worn rear tires with new tires while we took a dinner break at their McDonalds. Even still, the rest of the way home was done very slowly and carefully.
Case in point…as the author had already stated, LISTEN TO THE CAR. I was so used to my old Civic and the way it react, I would just tell it what to do and know what it would do. The S2000 is a very interactive car. It is a very capable vehicle and is a blast to drive. It has a soul and if the driver doesn’t listen to it, it will regulate the driver with a harsh lesson. It is a GREAT car and as far as I am concerned, mine will be a legacy to my future kid.
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
I think you are missing an important point… any public road is not the place to be trying to eak out that extra 1/10 of handling. The consequences of failure are too high for your own vehicle, and can collect innocent bystanders into your mess.
Any ‘off-road left’ accident typically means you’ve not only wrecked, but you’ve crossed into oncoming traffic.
As far as road conditions… it’s true that these can change quickly, but shouldn’t catch you completely unaware. ANY car running low-profile, summer-spec tires is going to be at a very high risk for hydroplaning. Fat rubber with large tread blocks and a relatively shallow groove are bad news. That same design makes encountering gravel or sand a completely different situation.
Back in the day of my CRX, I had some relatively low-profile summer tires… it was very easy to get the front end to push on contaminated roads. With my S2000, I can’t say that the experience is that much different… except reacting to an oversteer on a RWD car takes a bit more attention than an understeer on a FWD car. Add in the moment from the mass being 16 feet behind the pivoting point (assuming the front wheels are still hooked up), if you’ve also unloaded the suspension you’ve got a recipe for a quick loop or two…
The solution might be in proper gear for the road, temperature, weather… but one easy factor you can do is SLOW DOWN. I’ve got 25 years of sport-bike riding, which keeps me way more in tune with deciding what chuck of road I want to risk my life on… and where I just need to take it easy and enjoy the scenery…
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 2:44 pm
Very nice write up. Most of the S2K has been passed on to younger driver, being as it is more affordable now, so accidents are simply going to happen more. I hope the responsibility grows, and the young drivers learn and can avoid dangerous consequences.
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 2:52 pm
S2000 Talk or the Intro section can be tough parts of the site to read because every day there’s a new thread from either a young kid excited about buying his s2k or another young kid dejected after wrecking his s2k.
Teens and this car don’t mix. I was 23 when I bought mine. Glad I waited. Also, the s2k with Blizzaks is THE BEST car I’ve ever driven in snow. RWD + snow tires will trounce FWD with all seasons all day.
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 7:13 pm
Good article and highlights very good points.
IMO anyone under 20 or less than 4 years of driving…….SHOULD NOT OWN AN S2000.
Everyone should be informed when they buy the car that they should take the up most care when driving in rain or even COLD weather. They should NOT drive in Snow unless equipped with snow tires.
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 8:38 pm
I’m frankly tired of these doom and gloom threads – if you crash your s2000 you simply don’t know how to drive – period. If some other vehicle hits you or something freak happens like a plane crashes into you that’s an accident.
An accident is not pushing your car beyond your limits. I’ve only had mine a year but I’ve driven the crap out of it and other than one incident where the suspension fully compressed and the tire touched the fender and a I lifted and spun I’ve never had an incident yet.
The single biggest fail I’ve seen is huge inputs in steering or braking. Too many people I drive with think they need to spend every waking second at 9,000 rpm – you don’t. Find a gear thats suitable 4-6th works well for me with 4.77′s on my local canyon road – mostly 6th and use your clutch foot for braking instead.
Ross Bentley s Speed Secret books explain the traction circle and how to use it and I suggest everyone give them a read.
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 8:58 pm
I dont understand why everybody blames the young drivers for wrecking the S2000
i am driving for 15 years and i am a careful driver and i wrecked my s2k
This is a dangerous car
I am sick of hearing S2000 is a perfect car and 50/50 weight
It might be perfect for track or auto x drivers but not for everyday driver
Period
on Sep 17th, 2011 at 9:55 pm
Sh$t head drivers are why my insurance keeps going up. Learn how to drive before you buy a S2K!
on Sep 18th, 2011 at 3:09 am
Most of the older drivers learned our skills on MGs, Triumphs, Alfas, Fiats & Datsuns etc. These cars had 4 or 5 inch wheels, agricultural suspensions, & not much over 100BHP & many much less.
These things could not spit themselves off into the scenery with that little power, & their cornering grip was so low, that they let go very gently. In other words, their handling did not exceed our reflexes & driving ability.
In these cars we learnt, & developed the time honored “slow in fast out” driving technique that allowed rapid point to point times, with little danger of getting in over our heads, until we had developed our skills.
Now enter the S2K, & the Porsche 911, with wide wheels, grippy tyres, good suspensions & enough power to spit themselves off the road in a nanosecond. When these things let go, the result is well beyond the novice, particularly if they have absolutely no RWD experience.
Even worse these cars do not respond well to the slow in, fast out driving technique, as with the higher power, that is asking for the thing to disappear backwards in to the shrubs. Add the likelihood that the young & poorer driver is likely to have cheap bargain basement tires on a car that demands good rubber, & it is all stacked up against the young enthusiast.
Yes, for heavens sake get some track time, but it must be some faster stuff. Mucking around at 30/40 MPH won’t teach you much about the smooth gentle high entry speed smaller throttle opening driving techniques that these things demand.
on Sep 18th, 2011 at 9:59 am
That Is my car with the tan interior. I’m a female and I am 18 year sold. Meaning I l
Fall into the “young driver” category. I don’t agree that “people under 20″ should not own this vehicle. Everyone, I’m sure, has lost control of their s2000. Just maybe you got lucky and corrected it from flipping, rolling, etc. I made a mistake of not transferring weight. Figured “I’ve taken this corner many times faster, this time I’ll enter at a slower speed but not hit the breaks”. That’s when it all went wrong.
I agree, the turn is not the same everytime. I was unlucky and didn’t correct it correctly. Hit the enbankment and flipped her upside down. If I had taken a auto cross once or twice Im sure I would of been able to avoid flipping it and just maybe spun out. But there are many what-if situations. Like what if i didn’t put the top down and took the normal way to school.. Nothing would
Of happened. But then again what if i didn’t survive?
You can be an expert at driving and taken Many driving classes and all tht jazz. But there is also a unpredictable chance that you may too mess up.
I’ll be picking up another gpw w/tan in a couple of years. But I’ll help reduce my risk by taking a few classes to avoid any situations to my best.
Stay safe!!!
on Sep 18th, 2011 at 10:45 am
Great article. I will add that I autocross, road race and ice race currently. When I first bought an S2000 in 2003, I didn’t do anything motorsport-related at all. It was the friendly and helpful S2ki community that convinced me to start learning about my car. I can tell you that it has added a whole additional level of enjoyment and safety even in street driving at street-legal speeds. I highly recommend it to everyone. Check out the “Racing and Competition” subforum on S2ki for info on how to get started!
on Sep 19th, 2011 at 5:29 am
I have to say, great article as well.
One thing that I invested in as soon as I got my AP1 last year, was an aftermarket traction control system. Since I live in Chicago, even with winter tires, I felt it was worth the 1600 I paid for it.
This thing has saved me more times than I can count in the rain and snow. It’s not to say that I drove recklessly, but it’s as you said in the article, sometimes we’re TOO overconfident in our driving, and all it takes is one slip and it turns into a 15000 hard lesson to learn.
If anyone is curious about the traction control let me know. It’s a great investment.
on Sep 19th, 2011 at 10:30 am
Ditto on the great article, and a very important message for those considering an S2000. I’ve found that the S2000′s biggest strength – it’s motor bike precision and constant yearning to be driven on the edge – can be it’s biggest liability when placed in the wrong hands.
Like a racing bike, which I find myself motoring with on many occasions, you’ve got to be very mindful of road conditions, grip, cornering speed – it’s not a forgiving car for those who aren’t attentive.
But for those who like to drive hard and give the car their full attention on the road, few can beat it for thrills. It really is a racing bike on four wheels….
on Sep 19th, 2011 at 11:37 am
good post, i had a eg6 before my s2k, then i got my s2k when i was 18. In the beginning i thought i was superman with this car but after a few near death experiences and having the chance to practice in safe environments, i have grown to acknowledge the fact that this car can really fun but at times can be scary as hell.
on Sep 20th, 2011 at 7:46 pm
I’ve wanted one of these since they came into existence, but I’m glad it took until this year to get one. I’ll be 27 soon and have grown up on FWD Hondas. Had I purchased one years ago, having an AP1 and being younger, I’m sure I would have totaled it. Taking sharp turns at a brisk pace (on country roads through fields), when I felt the car start to come loose I let off the gas and quickly realized the difference between RWD and FWD driving… Fortunately I opted for an ’08 with VSA and am sure it played a major role in helping me keep control.
I know the younger crowd doesn’t like to hear it, but I don’t think it’s a car for the younger crowd. Yes, it’s entirely possible for a 16 yr old to drive one better than an old experienced fart, but in general I don’t think it’s the best combination. I did plenty of things driving while younger that I wouldn’t even consider now, despite always being a bit more mature than my age group. I’ve had PLENTY of close calls throughout my driving history, and most of which weren’t from being inattentive or driving in an unsafe manner, but simply from unexpected road conditions or surprises. As you get older and experience more, you’ll have a better grasp of what unexpected events can occur and will drive (more) appropriately. Remember, there’s a reason insurance gets cheaper as you get older — and it’s not just because people want to be mean to younger folks.
Accidents do happen, but I still see most “accidents” as completely avoidable events. My CRX is a bit … scary to drive in wet weather. I’m sure it’s a combination of wider-than-stock wheels, summer tires, original suspension, and the fact it’s a very light vehicle. So, whenever it rained I would keep an excessive amount of distance between me and the next vehicle, take an excessive amount of time to change lanes, and drive at an excessively slow speed. I definitely feel much more comfortable driving the S in the wet, however I still take the necessary precautions to avoid an accident. The “it won’t happen to me” attitude I had when I was younger has all but dissipated and now I’d much rather drive like a grandma and make sure I get my car home unscathed, and drive a little bit below my level of complete comfort, just in case I run into that unexpected surprise.
As a new owner, thanks for the article.
on Sep 21st, 2011 at 7:07 pm
I’ve basically been driving FWD Hondas forever and looking at getting an S2000 in the near future.
I’m 30+ so I feel I am less likely to do some stupid like the younger kids who get S2000s, but because of the nature of the car itself I’m leaning towards an 06+ DBW/VSA AP2. It seems every time I see a “I wrecked my car” thread, it’s always an AP1. I know AP1 owners more will argue go get some good driving instruction and make sure your tires are good, but I’d rather have a safety net that you get with the 06+. I’d rather not take a chance on the street and feel that with an AP1 won’t be able to enjoy driving the car worrying about wrecking it.
on Sep 22nd, 2011 at 7:57 pm
I do drift(240), autox and do track day. Still pussy out on the s2k. Sometime. So newbie with FWD to RWD=dangerzone
Please take easy in the RAIN during sharp turn.
on Sep 24th, 2011 at 10:21 am
I’ve been driving Front engine RWD cars for the larger part of my life. I’m 31 now, and picked up my s2000(turbo) about 3-4 yrs. ago. I always had cars like mustangs, corvettes, an SC400 things like that, before and assumed the s2000 would drive basically the same, that is until the first time I kicked the rear end loose in a turn. After fishtailing from one side to the other and being unable to get the rear end back in line, at which point I ended up spinning out and almost being decapitated by the barbwire fence I careened through. After finally coming to a stop and verifying all my limbs were still attached, I tried to analyze what just happened, and what I did wrong. When it suddenly became obvious, most every other front engine RWD car is heavy in the front, light in the rear, as oppose to the nearly perfect 50/50 weight balance of the S2000. in my corvette or Mustang, I could kick the rear end out, and pull it right back in line at will. As you reached this point, you could feel the rear starting to get light, and it would slowly, predictably start to kick out just a little at a time. I could almost literally drive the car down the road sideways in complete control. the S2000 on the other hand holds the road like a train in comparison, but as soon as that rear end lets go, it goes, and goes fast with little or no warning, and it all comes down to the weight distribution. Just wanted to add my 2cents, and my point being that even someone that is an expert with other FE-RWD cars will have to pretty much learn from scratch when switching to the S2k. That heavy rear end is wonderful at holding grip in the turns, but when it comes loose, boy does it ever come loose!
on Oct 29th, 2011 at 8:51 pm
hey guys, just wanna say that I am 19 and drive an ap1 00 model s2k. great car. I have come to understand how dangerous they are… I would have loved to read this b4 I bought the car. Only ever drove front wheel drive cars and the occasional wrx. I had no idea how different it would be and have had a close call or two. Never had any track experience (although would LOVE to) This read plus all the comments have helped me alot. thx guys