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12-20-2001, 03:42 AM
#21
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I don't think Naishou is disputing the fact that 'magazine' times vary. They do - easily by a good second from day to day let alone magazine to magazine. Though, what he's saying (I think) is that on the same day, same place, same driver - the WRX/200SX will be always quicker then the TypeR. ie. when the TypeR is pulling 15.5 1/4mile then the WRX/200SX are pulling 15.0. When the TypeR is pulling 14.5 then the WRX/200SX are pulling flat 14. I think what he's saying is that there's not a single report where they have all these cars and the TypeR is the quickest ... though the BM run shows otherwise - could the S14 be non-turbo as someone else said?
Personally, I've never run with a TypeR so I cannot comment on it's straighline perfromance first-hand. Though, I have done pretty detailed staighline comparisions with a prev model WRX and S15 200SX and I can vouch for these two cars being a match for the S2000 in terms of acceleration .... in particular bellow 140kph. Here's the reports:
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?...1&highlight=wrx
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?...highlight=200SX
Personally, I've never run with a TypeR so I cannot comment on it's straighline perfromance first-hand. Though, I have done pretty detailed staighline comparisions with a prev model WRX and S15 200SX and I can vouch for these two cars being a match for the S2000 in terms of acceleration .... in particular bellow 140kph. Here's the reports:
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?...1&highlight=wrx
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?...highlight=200SX
12-20-2001, 12:17 PM
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Thanks DavidM, that's exactly what I'm saying.
Fellas, tone down the personal insults. Last warning. The fact that you have not one thing to say in the way of reasoned argument does not reflect well on you. I was previously looking forward to meeting some of you. Now, you can forget it. I've had many good car related debates on this site before. This is the first time someone has descended into mud slinging, and all for what?
That something as unimportant as this stirs such outrage is really amusing. It's like I've accused these guys of sleeping with their mother because I doubt their car
It's just a car people. It's OK to like it but its not a member of your family.
As for a Type R being quicker on a track, every Motor test (oh no, there's that word again, I guess Cameron McConville is biased too?) has the WRX on top by a fair bit, even the heavy new model. Someone give me an independently confirmed time for a 100% stock ITR at Wakefield. I bet I can beat it.
Oh, and that I can't say anything unless I'm talking from personal experience? What a laugh. I believe that there is a particle called the electron. Have I seen one? I believe that the universe is expanding. Have I seen it? It's called reliable evidence people, something that I'm far more likely to take from the motoring journals of the world than a bunch of spoilt children hurling abuse at me. I didn't personally see you beating that McLaren F1 the other day either, so why should I believe you?
Fellas, tone down the personal insults. Last warning. The fact that you have not one thing to say in the way of reasoned argument does not reflect well on you. I was previously looking forward to meeting some of you. Now, you can forget it. I've had many good car related debates on this site before. This is the first time someone has descended into mud slinging, and all for what?
That something as unimportant as this stirs such outrage is really amusing. It's like I've accused these guys of sleeping with their mother because I doubt their car
It's just a car people. It's OK to like it but its not a member of your family.As for a Type R being quicker on a track, every Motor test (oh no, there's that word again, I guess Cameron McConville is biased too?) has the WRX on top by a fair bit, even the heavy new model. Someone give me an independently confirmed time for a 100% stock ITR at Wakefield. I bet I can beat it.
Oh, and that I can't say anything unless I'm talking from personal experience? What a laugh. I believe that there is a particle called the electron. Have I seen one? I believe that the universe is expanding. Have I seen it? It's called reliable evidence people, something that I'm far more likely to take from the motoring journals of the world than a bunch of spoilt children hurling abuse at me. I didn't personally see you beating that McLaren F1 the other day either, so why should I believe you?
12-20-2001, 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by N1R
you reckon stock for stock a WRX is faster than a Type-R at Wakefield? hmm are you "paper racing" again? what kinda shit are u smoking? gimme some ROFLLL why dont u show up at wakefield 1 day and lets see you do that imaginary 1:14 time of yours again? lol
you reckon stock for stock a WRX is faster than a Type-R at Wakefield? hmm are you "paper racing" again? what kinda shit are u smoking? gimme some ROFLLL why dont u show up at wakefield 1 day and lets see you do that imaginary 1:14 time of yours again? lol
Why do you persist with the personal insults? You are acting like a child. I hope one day we do meet on a racetrack because I want to see your face when I lap you
12-20-2001, 03:45 PM
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DavidM: the reason im so critical of these Magazines is because theres so much inconsistencies not only between different magazines but different issues of the same magazines.
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Very true - hard to compare times 'across' dfifferent magazines. That's because each magazine does it differenlty - ie. one publishises the 'best' run while another the 'average' of all the runs. Also, some run on a track and some don't (ie more/less grip). Also, some have one person aboard and some have two. There's enough variations to make the figures 'across' magazies vary by a good second. Not only that but even within the same magazine the tests are not reliable unless they have the cars in question there on the same day and driven by the same driver. Just because they tested car "A" six month ago and got 14.5 1/4mile and then they tested a car "B" today and managed 15.0 1/4 mile - it does not mean that car "B" is slower then car "A". Important to look at the 'same day, same driver' comparisions ... they might not show the ultimate perfromance potential but they should be indicative of which car is quicker and by how much. Again, this is not set in stone as there's always a lot of vriables that infulence the times but you'd figure that if you read 10 head-to-head comparisions by a few different magazines and they always have car A quicker - then car A is most likely quicker.
Though, I prefer to look at 0-160kph times as those seem to be a lot more 'stable' and indicative of cars acceleration.
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If you compare the Motors BFYB 2000 and 2001 article you'll know what i mean. Same car same track.... hell who knows who the drivers were even though they say Cameron McConville, but the difference in the cornering speed of the Type-R in 2000 was 169km/h second only tor the Porsche's, and in this years BFYB it was something like 154km/h.....?? yet in 2000 the track was damp, YET they manage to get a higher cornering speed.
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Yep, correct - CM drove the cars in both instances. Though, the corner speed differences between 2000 and 2001 were explained in the test - one year they measured 'corner entry' speed while the other they measured 'corner exit' speed. No idea why they would try and confuse us like that but it's noted in the 'corner speed' table. Main discreptancy was the top speed though ... they were good 10 - 15kph down in 2000 on 2001. Wind I guess ... when I was there a few months ago - I could not see more then 218kph on the speedo while 2 months before some other people from here (ie. this board) were saying that they saw 230+ kph on their speedos.
Though taking the last couple track tests (BFYB at the Island and PCOTY at Winton) what I noticed is this:
a) WRX, 200SX and Commodore SS always post a very similar lap time (but the 200SX is the one that's usually the fastest).
b) Integra TypeR is about 1 sec/lap slower than the above lot.
Again, let me say that I have not even had a ride in TypeR so I can't comment on personal experience ... though I have been in an S15 200SX at Winton while I had my S2000 there so I know what the differences are between those two cars forst hand.
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There are other inconsistencies but i wont go into them, DC2SpecR and Mugen_R can also vouch for their testing methods for one of their writeups "Ninja Hurtles??" because it was DC2's car in the article and they were present at the testing...... all i can say is unprofessional, and not fair at all. So basically im not saying that everything in these magazines are BS, im just saying take the information for what its worth and nothing more.
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no, kidding - that's DC2's car ... I did not know that :-) How cool :-) That's one fast Integra .... the article sais that it's got about 165kW (at the crank) - is that true? If so, what mods are done to the car to get extra 20kW out of it?
Also, car you comment on their testing and what was unprofessional and unfair about it ... I always wanted to know exactly how they go about things.
btw, where are you guys located ... Sydney or Melbourne?
ps. cool - we have a WRX vs TypeR challenge here ... keep us posted :-)
DavidM: the reason im so critical of these Magazines is because theres so much inconsistencies not only between different magazines but different issues of the same magazines.
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Very true - hard to compare times 'across' dfifferent magazines. That's because each magazine does it differenlty - ie. one publishises the 'best' run while another the 'average' of all the runs. Also, some run on a track and some don't (ie more/less grip). Also, some have one person aboard and some have two. There's enough variations to make the figures 'across' magazies vary by a good second. Not only that but even within the same magazine the tests are not reliable unless they have the cars in question there on the same day and driven by the same driver. Just because they tested car "A" six month ago and got 14.5 1/4mile and then they tested a car "B" today and managed 15.0 1/4 mile - it does not mean that car "B" is slower then car "A". Important to look at the 'same day, same driver' comparisions ... they might not show the ultimate perfromance potential but they should be indicative of which car is quicker and by how much. Again, this is not set in stone as there's always a lot of vriables that infulence the times but you'd figure that if you read 10 head-to-head comparisions by a few different magazines and they always have car A quicker - then car A is most likely quicker.
Though, I prefer to look at 0-160kph times as those seem to be a lot more 'stable' and indicative of cars acceleration.
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If you compare the Motors BFYB 2000 and 2001 article you'll know what i mean. Same car same track.... hell who knows who the drivers were even though they say Cameron McConville, but the difference in the cornering speed of the Type-R in 2000 was 169km/h second only tor the Porsche's, and in this years BFYB it was something like 154km/h.....?? yet in 2000 the track was damp, YET they manage to get a higher cornering speed.
--------------------------------------
Yep, correct - CM drove the cars in both instances. Though, the corner speed differences between 2000 and 2001 were explained in the test - one year they measured 'corner entry' speed while the other they measured 'corner exit' speed. No idea why they would try and confuse us like that but it's noted in the 'corner speed' table. Main discreptancy was the top speed though ... they were good 10 - 15kph down in 2000 on 2001. Wind I guess ... when I was there a few months ago - I could not see more then 218kph on the speedo while 2 months before some other people from here (ie. this board) were saying that they saw 230+ kph on their speedos.
Though taking the last couple track tests (BFYB at the Island and PCOTY at Winton) what I noticed is this:
a) WRX, 200SX and Commodore SS always post a very similar lap time (but the 200SX is the one that's usually the fastest).
b) Integra TypeR is about 1 sec/lap slower than the above lot.
Again, let me say that I have not even had a ride in TypeR so I can't comment on personal experience ... though I have been in an S15 200SX at Winton while I had my S2000 there so I know what the differences are between those two cars forst hand.
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There are other inconsistencies but i wont go into them, DC2SpecR and Mugen_R can also vouch for their testing methods for one of their writeups "Ninja Hurtles??" because it was DC2's car in the article and they were present at the testing...... all i can say is unprofessional, and not fair at all. So basically im not saying that everything in these magazines are BS, im just saying take the information for what its worth and nothing more.
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no, kidding - that's DC2's car ... I did not know that :-) How cool :-) That's one fast Integra .... the article sais that it's got about 165kW (at the crank) - is that true? If so, what mods are done to the car to get extra 20kW out of it?
Also, car you comment on their testing and what was unprofessional and unfair about it ... I always wanted to know exactly how they go about things.
btw, where are you guys located ... Sydney or Melbourne?
ps. cool - we have a WRX vs TypeR challenge here ... keep us posted :-)
12-20-2001, 05:04 PM
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I was there to witness what I thought was SHOCKING!
First of all, I still don't know what the point of the review was. Anyways.. i'll get straight to it.
Was a one day thing.. (in Melbourne)
We drove around the city area to take pictures, near the stadium, bridge etc...
Then we head off to Sandown at noon to do the 1/4 mile. MOTOR's borrowed the straight during lunch off someone who hired it for some advance driving lessons who were only insured for cars doing max of 80km/h. The 200sx was first to be hooked up to the corevette (how ever you spell it), laptop and the corevette was powered by the car's cigarette plug. On the main straight of Sandown, for the people who have been at that track. The main straight is not flat. From the last corner, it goes up hill. David Morley was the testor for this article. After the first run, going up hills. I thought to myself.. now I know why these guys get these weird times! With the 200sx, he basiclly rolled off the line like you would at a traffic light, waited for the turbo to spool and bang! Off he went to do a best of 13.4-7? but he got that time going downhill on the mainstraight (clock wise).
Next was the WRX. Looked at the car while it was being hooked up with all the gadgets, he had an aftermarket turbo.. IHI something and was running just alittle over 1 bar? So it wasn't stock neither was the 200sx. Put something like 197kw at the rear wheels. With the WRX, being AWD... David actually launched it well. 4 wheels smoking then BANG! off he went. I would say that was a very good launch and it can't get much faster than that! He popped the clutch @ 5000-6000RPM. It did a 12.8? again, going down the hill...
Now for my friends car (DC2specR). They carried the gear across and hooked everything up. Then they notice the cigarette lighter plug is missing. DC2specR modified the centre console for the 2 gauges (Oil Pres & Oil Temp) which meant he had to sacrifice the lighter plug. So we were stuck. While trying to figure out how to power the device, a organiser of the Advance driving school came over and told David that the Sandown track officals did not want anymore hi speed runs. Due to the fact that they did not have insurance for cars going that fast, max of 80km/h (if any accident happened). So we were forced to prosponed it. We left Sandown and headed off to some of Melbourne's secondary roads (On the way to Phillip Island). From then on, David had driven the S15 and WRX around the city and to Sandown, but hasn't been behind the Type-R. The worst thing to do is drive a Honda (Or any N/A car) with a very loud exhaust system. Specially in the ITR's because the gearing's. The constant droning of the car made him comment "VERY VERY LOUD". Also being a personal car, the bucket seat was suited for the owner which was half the size of David. So it wasn't a very comfortable ride. We turned off the freeway and headed out to some winding roads. There, more picutres were taken and they told us this is were we are going to do the 1/4 run. It was getting windy also. Got to the straight then they modified the power leads (David cutting the plugs and wiring them straight to the battery! LOL) so we can get some times. I was the one who drove the ITR. DC2specR left this to me because I like shifting fast!
and also that it was his personal car and he didn't like the idea of someone else driving it (Other cars were company cars. WRX & S15). So I got this black thing hanging on the passenger door and BANG! i took off. Wheel was spinning soo much that i couldn't even hear the tyres sqreech! even by feathuring the throttle. Road quality was F&*Ked up! now I know why they call it secondary roads. Apart from having no traction and going against the wind, I managed a 13.99 after 4 runs. The others were like 14.02, 14.14 etc.. and was happy to retire with a 13.99. The ITR might look hardcore in the pictures but there were minor modifications. Dean from Technik tunning did the following...
4-1 Extractor
2.5 inch Exhaust
Cam Gears
Fuel pressure regulator
Short Intake system
And a aftermarket Full Engine management.
That's it, no cam shafts, same compression ratio.. nothing. Internals were all stock. So considering the mods done to the car, the time was good.
After that, there was a winding section nearby and David took each car for a drive. The 200sx and ITR were both tunned for track racing. So the suspension they had were suited for smooth surface which meant it was very bumpy on these roads. The WRX in the other hand only had different springs but with the same shocks. Which was a smooth ride. Stock cars are always the best through winding roads, if you read the article, i think he likes the WRX more. But as he also mention that he felt the 200sx was faster but due to the RESULT! the WRX is quicker? I sat in all cars and I know the 200sx was the fastest. Just because of a poor launch, it wasn't quick on Paper!.
That was my once in a life time experience with MOTORs.
First of all, I still don't know what the point of the review was. Anyways.. i'll get straight to it.
Was a one day thing.. (in Melbourne)
We drove around the city area to take pictures, near the stadium, bridge etc...
Then we head off to Sandown at noon to do the 1/4 mile. MOTOR's borrowed the straight during lunch off someone who hired it for some advance driving lessons who were only insured for cars doing max of 80km/h. The 200sx was first to be hooked up to the corevette (how ever you spell it), laptop and the corevette was powered by the car's cigarette plug. On the main straight of Sandown, for the people who have been at that track. The main straight is not flat. From the last corner, it goes up hill. David Morley was the testor for this article. After the first run, going up hills. I thought to myself.. now I know why these guys get these weird times! With the 200sx, he basiclly rolled off the line like you would at a traffic light, waited for the turbo to spool and bang! Off he went to do a best of 13.4-7? but he got that time going downhill on the mainstraight (clock wise).
Next was the WRX. Looked at the car while it was being hooked up with all the gadgets, he had an aftermarket turbo.. IHI something and was running just alittle over 1 bar? So it wasn't stock neither was the 200sx. Put something like 197kw at the rear wheels. With the WRX, being AWD... David actually launched it well. 4 wheels smoking then BANG! off he went. I would say that was a very good launch and it can't get much faster than that! He popped the clutch @ 5000-6000RPM. It did a 12.8? again, going down the hill...
Now for my friends car (DC2specR). They carried the gear across and hooked everything up. Then they notice the cigarette lighter plug is missing. DC2specR modified the centre console for the 2 gauges (Oil Pres & Oil Temp) which meant he had to sacrifice the lighter plug. So we were stuck. While trying to figure out how to power the device, a organiser of the Advance driving school came over and told David that the Sandown track officals did not want anymore hi speed runs. Due to the fact that they did not have insurance for cars going that fast, max of 80km/h (if any accident happened). So we were forced to prosponed it. We left Sandown and headed off to some of Melbourne's secondary roads (On the way to Phillip Island). From then on, David had driven the S15 and WRX around the city and to Sandown, but hasn't been behind the Type-R. The worst thing to do is drive a Honda (Or any N/A car) with a very loud exhaust system. Specially in the ITR's because the gearing's. The constant droning of the car made him comment "VERY VERY LOUD". Also being a personal car, the bucket seat was suited for the owner which was half the size of David. So it wasn't a very comfortable ride. We turned off the freeway and headed out to some winding roads. There, more picutres were taken and they told us this is were we are going to do the 1/4 run. It was getting windy also. Got to the straight then they modified the power leads (David cutting the plugs and wiring them straight to the battery! LOL) so we can get some times. I was the one who drove the ITR. DC2specR left this to me because I like shifting fast!
and also that it was his personal car and he didn't like the idea of someone else driving it (Other cars were company cars. WRX & S15). So I got this black thing hanging on the passenger door and BANG! i took off. Wheel was spinning soo much that i couldn't even hear the tyres sqreech! even by feathuring the throttle. Road quality was F&*Ked up! now I know why they call it secondary roads. Apart from having no traction and going against the wind, I managed a 13.99 after 4 runs. The others were like 14.02, 14.14 etc.. and was happy to retire with a 13.99. The ITR might look hardcore in the pictures but there were minor modifications. Dean from Technik tunning did the following...4-1 Extractor
2.5 inch Exhaust
Cam Gears
Fuel pressure regulator
Short Intake system
And a aftermarket Full Engine management.
That's it, no cam shafts, same compression ratio.. nothing. Internals were all stock. So considering the mods done to the car, the time was good.
After that, there was a winding section nearby and David took each car for a drive. The 200sx and ITR were both tunned for track racing. So the suspension they had were suited for smooth surface which meant it was very bumpy on these roads. The WRX in the other hand only had different springs but with the same shocks. Which was a smooth ride. Stock cars are always the best through winding roads, if you read the article, i think he likes the WRX more. But as he also mention that he felt the 200sx was faster but due to the RESULT! the WRX is quicker? I sat in all cars and I know the 200sx was the fastest. Just because of a poor launch, it wasn't quick on Paper!.
That was my once in a life time experience with MOTORs.
12-20-2001, 05:26 PM
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lollll...... one thing you probably forgot to emphasis is the tester; in this case David Morley's driving ability. Anyone can launch a WRX, but not anyone can launch a RWD or FWD..... this showed in the final numbers for the WRX and S15, and thankfully David didnt drive the Type-R or else i bet the 1/4 mile time would have been in the mid 14's....... now to how they got those rediculous power figures, if you read in the issue proceeding that in the mail section you would have seen my email to them and their reply to it. SO basically they didnt do any independent dyno runs or even asked the tuners/owners for any numbers, they just wack some figures into some kinda formula and whiz bang! u got a power figure, and it was actually 170kw that was quoted in the magazine for dc2's car not 165kw... heheheheh go figure!!!
12-20-2001, 06:36 PM
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Apologies to the civilised members of the board for this off topic ranting. There seem to be a few people here who just like to stir personal arguments instead of contributing some useful information we could all learn from. Ego management courses anyone?
Why? Are you forgetting that I also have an S2000? Who cares what kind of aspiration it has. I don't care one little bit what capacity it is or whether it has a turbo. It's just a car and I just drive it. The ITR is very impressive for what it is, if you want my opinion. I have never said otherwise. You guys are like a bunch of children arguing over whose father is the toughest. None of the rest of us could give a shit if someone has a faster car than us but some of us take an interest in knowing, that's all. Discussions on this board usually remain civil no matter how much we disagree. We're all just car enthusiasts having a friendly discussion. You guys on the other hand come straight out with the personal attacks. Why turn a civilised discussion into a heated argument? Please don't ruin it for everyone else.
So you reckon you can drive that good eh? beat any stock ITR? why don't you sign up with Super V8 Touring cars? you can make Cameron look bad! =)
Unlike you guys I don't claim to be a good driver. And yes I do think I can beat any stock ITR in my stock WRX. Why? Because it's a faster car and because I am (just) good enough to beat even a good driver in an ITR. Big deal. Who cares? Not me. If it offends you I'll tell you your ITR is faster than a Formula 1 car. Will it make you feel better? I'm not going to be driving V8 supercars any time soon but there will either be a Formula Ford or a Rotax powered kart in my garage in the near future
You did a 1:13.5? In N1R's car? Since when does he run road tyres
You gonna show us the time sheet, or was it your mate's dodgy stopwatch
Originally posted by Mugen_R
Wouldn't that be a shame if a WRX (2.0L TURBO CHARGED CAR) lose to a Integra Type-R (1.8L N/A)?? got .2 more of a cubic inch and a turbo charger? hmmmzz...
Wouldn't that be a shame if a WRX (2.0L TURBO CHARGED CAR) lose to a Integra Type-R (1.8L N/A)?? got .2 more of a cubic inch and a turbo charger? hmmmzz...
So you reckon you can drive that good eh? beat any stock ITR? why don't you sign up with Super V8 Touring cars? you can make Cameron look bad! =)
You did a 1:13.5? In N1R's car? Since when does he run road tyres
You gonna show us the time sheet, or was it your mate's dodgy stopwatch