vader1

OK, confession of total dork-dom, I own a scooter. Wife would not let me get a motorcycle, she said "get a scooter if you want to drive around" thinking moped and I went out and bought a 300. It is not cool or anything, but I commute on it a couple times a week in the summer when it is nice out for giggles. I wear boots, full face helmet, gloves and armor jacket when I ride to work.

Even with a modified S that is really pretty quick, on a nice day it is more fun to ride the damn scooter at legal speeds than it is to burn rubber in the car with the top down. It is really enjoyable to just cruise along the river and enjoy the scenery and lean into a few corners.

I live just a few miles from hundreds of miles of back-road motorcycle country along twisty county roads that follow different streams into a very scenic river. Riding them is great. My problem is everyone I know is getting rid of their rides. I would love just a small 300 Ninja to ride these roads on the weekends. Nothing crazy or it would be too much for me anyway.

But honestly, since I don't have anyone to ride with, I am thinking of just selling my 300 because of the safety factor. I have not had any really close calls, but I have had people do really stupid stuff near me and avoided trouble because I pay attention. If I have no one to enjoy riding with and could get hurt, it does not make much sense. I do too many other things like ski, wakeboard, hike, scuba, etc to mess up a knee or an ankle. I know two dead guys and a few with permanent joint issues from motorcycle injuries. While deaths are easy to avoid, falling to one side and crushing your ankle into powder is much easier. I know a guy who did it, and he is not real mobile anymore. He can't do the stuff I love to do. I have a 22 mile hike coming up down the Napali coast in a couple weeks. Been yearning to do it for ten years. I would hate for a fall to have taken that off the table.

Dizings2k

Honestly, you are in far more danger riding a scooter than you are a motorcycle. That scooter is exposing you to all of the dangers and risks of riding, without any of the advantages of being able to swiftly exit a situation. You would be far more safe on something with some power. Not telling you to go out and buy the latest literbike, but a ninja 250-300, shit what are they 3-4 grand? Used 2 grand or so? less the price of selling that scooter.. you have very very little into it. Not to mention the fun factor increases infinitely with a clutch and gears on a bike!

vader1

Perhaps, but it is not really a slouch. It is a 30 hp machine with the same weight as the Ninja. It is not a rocket but up to 60 it goes with some throttle. You still have the CVT dulling it a bit but the bike will do over 90 with me on it. In any city traffic it is far more responsive than most cars and shoots away from traffic at a light. That is all fine. I don't want too much more power because I would do something dumb with it and the small wheels make it turn quicker than a motorcycle. I would just like the Ninja to shift my own gears and because it looks cooler, and has ABS. If you have been to Paris or Rome and have seen all the people commuting on big scooters, that is basically what I have. The extra power might help a tad to stay away from danger, but I don't ride much in heavy traffic or highways for more than a 2 mile jaunt and since it will easily do 75 in the 60 mph zone I travel in, it is really not an issue.

I do like that I can put three gallons in it and forget about it for a month though. My top tank was 83mpg.

TheDonEffect

So... what do you do, when you're mid corner in a sharp turn, normal riding, and your front wheel runs over a patch of loose gravel? A deep pothole or crack in the pavement (prevalent in back roads)? In a car, you have three other tires gripping the road keeping you somewhat stable, in a bike, lose one and you're most likely to lose all. Even the best riders in the world drop their bikes at some point, even in controlled environments.
[/quote]


I know my roads that I frequently ride, very well. Just like driving one of your cars fast, you have to know when and where, right? It's the same on a bike. If you are scanning ahead, like you should do in any form of transport, you'll see debris, etc, ahead. We kick out our boot to alert riders behind us where debris is. I've run across animals, gravel, dirt, holes, everything underneath the sun and magically *poof* I'm still here. Do you think it's because I'm just lucky? Just this summer, twice on the same day, I had someone pull out of a driveway, abruptly and park it in a corner (slowly accel doing 5mph), know why I didn't hit them coming through the corner? Because it was a blind corner in both cases and I had slowed my speed to adjust, just in case. There are no potholes where I ride, it's out in the country. Potholes are found in the city, not out on rural farm roads or in the canyons, they don't exist.

You guys that don't ride, or haven't just do not understand. Proper gear (Full gear), common sense, and some training, and most importantly, not using the bike like you use a car (commuting, groceries, etc, etc) and you can mitigate just about every risk. Takes some skill and learning however and some don't have enough self control. I ride every weekend it's above 40, which means most weekends during the year, probably 36-40 weekends a year, no issues. Due to not being behind a big cage of metal my visibility is superb and I can see ahead quite well, and make easy work out of debris, gravel, anything, everything. What I don't do is commute in rush hour traffic on one, or run up to Costco on one of my bikes. July 4th, Memorial Day weekend, or any time there is heaps and heaps of cars on the road my shits are parked in the garage with bike covers on them. Knowing when and where to ride is as important or more important than knowing how to ride the bike in the first place. And there is always the track if you are so worried about such things. The only thing there you have to worry about it is some nub riding over their head and binning you in the process.

And for the record I've been down several times, when i was a nub. Two of those were on the street and my own fault for using the front brake while leaned over (panicing). IN both instances I wasn't lucky, I was geared up proper, and walked away almost unscathed (each time a quarter size piece of road rash).

My rides these days are 20 miles highway to my twisties, then 20 miles highway back. I feel relatively safe on the highway as I was taught to go 5-10MPH faster than traffic in the fast lane, and check my mirrors. Actually on the highway I feel safer than in my car because I have so much power to weight. If I feel any danger, someone creeping in on me from either behind or to the side, I've got Brembos and can scrub speed like no man, and if I need to, downshift to 5th or 4th and I'm gone, with damn near no car made able to match pace with me.
[/quote]

Exactly... you avoid potholes, gravel, etc.. by not riding 10/10ths on the street and always allowing that margin on EVERY single turn.

This is what is different this time around on my R1... This time it is strictly a toy. I do not commute like I used to, I don't run errands with it, I strictly take it out and get onto those twisties and back. The danger is exponential when you get into stop and go traffic. Best to avoid all that shit.

I second that the highway is different and I also feel safe there. Just as Tommy stated, you can get away from idiots on the highway faster than they will even realize a bike is passing. Very hard to do that in a car, regardless of speed, more because of the size. If I have about 2 feet of space, I can snake through.
[/quote]


You should ride professionally since even the elite moto gp riders aren't error proof. And that's what you're not realizing. You go through a tight turn, sure you're scanning ahead, unless you scouted the road minutes before you ride it, it's a matter of luck that there isn't an obstacle that you won't have the time to correct. In motorsports, shit happens all the time, riding around at unnatural speeds in or on an item with multiple moving, breakable parts, things happen, and controlling all that, a human. And the difference between cars and motorcycles is when something happens, it's more forgiving. You can do everything in your power to minimize your risk, but there's always risk. The difference is when something happens, the odd of something life changing happening to your body is a lot higher on a bike than in a metal body.

AZS2KDancer

Let's stop the nasty tones. I wanted to spark a discussion on the joys of both, not get into heated battles. Enjoy what you will. I rode a motorcycle after growing up on go-carts and mini-bikes. Loved those machines at the time. Now enjoy the open top rides in my S. I love having a sweetie next to me, and the comfort of the car. The S is my perfect combined love of open air adventure and the refinements of modern technology.

TheDonEffect

Ok ok.

When it comes to pure visceral automotive fun, it's gotta be a bike. Hell, riding a scooter is a lot of fun.
But I'll always be a car guy with that said.

Dizings2k

So... what do you do, when you're mid corner in a sharp turn, normal riding, and your front wheel runs over a patch of loose gravel? A deep pothole or crack in the pavement (prevalent in back roads)? In a car, you have three other tires gripping the road keeping you somewhat stable, in a bike, lose one and you're most likely to lose all. Even the best riders in the world drop their bikes at some point, even in controlled environments.
[/quote]


I know my roads that I frequently ride, very well. Just like driving one of your cars fast, you have to know when and where, right? It's the same on a bike. If you are scanning ahead, like you should do in any form of transport, you'll see debris, etc, ahead. We kick out our boot to alert riders behind us where debris is. I've run across animals, gravel, dirt, holes, everything underneath the sun and magically *poof* I'm still here. Do you think it's because I'm just lucky? Just this summer, twice on the same day, I had someone pull out of a driveway, abruptly and park it in a corner (slowly accel doing 5mph), know why I didn't hit them coming through the corner? Because it was a blind corner in both cases and I had slowed my speed to adjust, just in case. There are no potholes where I ride, it's out in the country. Potholes are found in the city, not out on rural farm roads or in the canyons, they don't exist.

You guys that don't ride, or haven't just do not understand. Proper gear (Full gear), common sense, and some training, and most importantly, not using the bike like you use a car (commuting, groceries, etc, etc) and you can mitigate just about every risk. Takes some skill and learning however and some don't have enough self control. I ride every weekend it's above 40, which means most weekends during the year, probably 36-40 weekends a year, no issues. Due to not being behind a big cage of metal my visibility is superb and I can see ahead quite well, and make easy work out of debris, gravel, anything, everything. What I don't do is commute in rush hour traffic on one, or run up to Costco on one of my bikes. July 4th, Memorial Day weekend, or any time there is heaps and heaps of cars on the road my shits are parked in the garage with bike covers on them. Knowing when and where to ride is as important or more important than knowing how to ride the bike in the first place. And there is always the track if you are so worried about such things. The only thing there you have to worry about it is some nub riding over their head and binning you in the process.

And for the record I've been down several times, when i was a nub. Two of those were on the street and my own fault for using the front brake while leaned over (panicing). IN both instances I wasn't lucky, I was geared up proper, and walked away almost unscathed (each time a quarter size piece of road rash).

My rides these days are 20 miles highway to my twisties, then 20 miles highway back. I feel relatively safe on the highway as I was taught to go 5-10MPH faster than traffic in the fast lane, and check my mirrors. Actually on the highway I feel safer than in my car because I have so much power to weight. If I feel any danger, someone creeping in on me from either behind or to the side, I've got Brembos and can scrub speed like no man, and if I need to, downshift to 5th or 4th and I'm gone, with damn near no car made able to match pace with me.
[/quote]

Exactly... you avoid potholes, gravel, etc.. by not riding 10/10ths on the street and always allowing that margin on EVERY single turn.

This is what is different this time around on my R1... This time it is strictly a toy. I do not commute like I used to, I don't run errands with it, I strictly take it out and get onto those twisties and back. The danger is exponential when you get into stop and go traffic. Best to avoid all that shit.

I second that the highway is different and I also feel safe there. Just as Tommy stated, you can get away from idiots on the highway faster than they will even realize a bike is passing. Very hard to do that in a car, regardless of speed, more because of the size. If I have about 2 feet of space, I can snake through.
[/quote]


You should ride professionally since even the elite moto gp riders aren't error proof. And that's what you're not realizing. You go through a tight turn, sure you're scanning ahead, unless you scouted the road minutes before you ride it, it's a matter of luck that there isn't an obstacle that you won't have the time to correct. In motorsports, shit happens all the time, riding around at unnatural speeds in or on an item with multiple moving, breakable parts, things happen, and controlling all that, a human. And the difference between cars and motorcycles is when something happens, it's more forgiving. You can do everything in your power to minimize your risk, but there's always risk. The difference is when something happens, the odd of something life changing happening to your body is a lot higher on a bike than in a metal body.
[/quote]

Are you serious? I'm not realizing?! I have over 50,000 miles on streetbikes, mostly the top tier 1000cc sportbikes, I'm 26 years old and I'm still here to tell about it. I've been down, but never been in the ER on life support or whatever else. It's my passion and I suggest you sit down and take notes before you look dumb and lose more credibility here. At no point did I say or allude to the fact that I was error proof. It's very clear from this post and your others in this thread that you have very little time or maybe no time at all on a street bike. So let me retype what I posted before. We are not talking about motorsports, we are talking about riding a motorcycle on the street. Yes, IF something happens on a bike versus a car, you are more safe in a car. Nobody is arguing that. What the motorcyclists in this thread are trying to do is educate a couple people that yes, while motorcycles are inherently more dangerous to ride, those dangers can be minimized.

That surprise obstacle that you refer to is exactly the situation I am describing when I talked about not riding 10/10ths on the street and toning it down to allow for those unexpected situations. When you are riding 10/10ths, it's not easy to abruptly adjust your line while at max lean. When you are riding 7/10ths or whatever you want to call it, that margin for correction, avoidance, etc, is there... allowing you to quickly adjust your direction and avoid the object, spill, etc. You MAKE the time to correct. That is the difference between riding smart, and being that idiot that almost kills themselves. Following me now?

tiger1964

But that's as true on 4 wheels as on 2, it's just a matter of degree... unless you drive an Escalade or something. At the most extreme, I recall borrowing a friend's Lotus Europa for the weekend and, against his recommendations, I took it briefly on the freeway -- and got in between two semis. I felt as "exposed" as I would likely have on a motorcycle.

Of course, as recently as yesterday, I was looking at bikes.

TommyDeVito

More nonsense dude, you aren't realizing much either and it's because you really don't know what you are talking about and from the sound of it, 0 experience.

MotoGP riders ride at 10/10ths, always, and they are on a 270HP bike that is lighter than anything we can get it so the power to weight is incredible. They are trying to hit the same centimeter of the track, every lap for 22-27 laps, full out, at 10/10ths. I don't ride at 10/10ths, even at the track. I push harder at the track than I do the street and on the street I keep a nice margin for anything that comes my way. I've avoided all sorts of things in the road. Just this summer someone left a big plastic bin in the HOV on my way out to the twisties. If i was in my car I couldn't avoid hitting it, due to the size of the car. On the bike, I swerved, barely grazed it (caused some scratches), and continued on. So there are times where there is an advantage on two wheels. And btw, most MotoGp riders, when they go down, walk away unscathed. They do indeed get hurt, some indeed die (RIP #58), but overwhelmingly that isn't the case.

There is debris on the road, hazards, doesn't matter if you are in a cage or on a bike. How many things in a car do you hit per year? I think most experienced drivers who are paying attention in a car....swerve to avoid something at some point, it's no different on a motorcycle. All the same things apply. Where I ride the biggest chance I have of injury is overcooking a turn and ending up in a grass covered ditch.

As far as that metal cage around you, um, that is a given, but as we've told you, we don't commute, or ride in any traffic/congested situations so me in the car vs. all the high risk areas where I drive my car (commuting, heavy traffic, etc) isn't a simple conversation of the risk 4 vs 2. That would be a long discussion.

I wear full, modern protective gear, the best that I can afford. When the airbag suits come down in price I'll have one of those too. I have mitigated every single risk there is by attending formal training on street and track, avoiding any and all high volume congestion, best protective gear I can afford, and work on my skill every time I ride. Since I have been down, early on in my riding career I'm pretty confident in my ability to survive an off because more chance than naught it will be my own fault. Life is a risk. I could get killed walking my dog. We all die, it's inevitable, so I don't live in fear of the inevitable. It's going to happen whether all of us like it or not.
If I thought my chances of injury or death were that high I wouldn't ride, period. But I know better. I've been listening to the above my entire riding career and laugh most of it off because it's coming from the mouths of people with no experience.

My group of guys I ride with are all older than me, have been riding decades longer than me and they are all here. I've met some people who are no longer here (ex. Marco Simoncelli) but they were either a MotoGP rider who had a freak accident, or mostly squids out there on the roads, riding with nothing but a helmet (if that), doing a buck forty on urban highways, stunting, and generally foolish, imbecile behavior. The ones like myself, dizing, etc, never met anyone in my life like us who is dead, not a one. And most of the people I know, if they get injured, it's probably 10 to 1, happening at the track where they are pushing their own limits. Actually, in over a decade of participating in group rides, or leading them as I've done the last 7 years, not one person has been down, not a single one. That isn't luck. It's because the people I've chosen to share the road with have formal training, know what they are doing, and always keep a margin in front and back of them. And we are all overgeared for the type of riding we do which says something about them mitigating every possible scenario.

Choose to bah humbug over bikes but don't lay your own personal decisions on everyone else. If you want to remain behind the cage so be it but don't tell anyone it can't be done safely as I and millions of others are LIVING proof. listening to this nonsense would be a bit like someone driving a Suburban, Escalade, Hummer, etc, lecturing you on driving a 2 seat, drop top, roadster. "I would never drive one of those..................." etc, etc.