I completely agree with you that teachers are underpaid and overworked, but I have something to say that I'm sure may strike a chord with alot of folks: students of today and the past who went into teaching and got their credentials knew from the start that it was a crap paying job, but still did it. If engineers had no hope of getting 60k+, I'm sure a lot of folks would've changed professions.
The uncomfortable truth is that they knew what they were getting into, but still went htorugh with it to obtain other forms of gratification other than a high paycheck, and this is not a new development. Where education does need reform is making sure classrooms are stocked with the right materials and resources, and that parents take an interest into their kids education, simply dropping them off and picking them up (if that) isn't enough. You give a teacher the right environment to teach, you'll see kids flourish. Teacher pay and test scores have no correlation.

 

Spoken like a true union guy

I've never been enslaved at any job I ever worked ;I could leave at any time I choose.

The only enslavement I've encountered was the 36 months of unions dues I was forced to pay to the IBEW.

Oh and by the way the Union forced that company to lay off everyone now and has moved the majority of it's operations to South America


So was Sadam Hussain some would argue

 

US Companies are not moving their work down to South America because of Unions, they are moving it down there because they will do the work for a fraction of the price, much like their standard of living is nowhere near what ours is........

 

the work is a fraction of the price down there BECAUSE of the unions up here artificially raising wages. so yes, it IS because of the unions.

 

jesus, are you serious, are you willing to make South American wages? Open your eyes.............

 

Joey and why do you think the U.S. labor costs are so high? Since obviously unions don't try to artificially raise the costs. $80 a hour for an auto line worker? Come on!

You say standards of living are lower others say cost to live are lower. Just look at the costs to live in Union states vs. non-union states. There is a difference. When costs to produce go up prices go up. When prices go up . . . . Why bother, Joey's only trying to justify in his mind his position on this earth

 

no i'm not...Your response above may have been facetious, i don't know, but i figured i'd respond anyway. Portions of my industry are actually going over to India, not South America. I'm a software developer - you may have heard all the outcry about offshoring of IT. Am I worried? No. I'll explain why. You're looking at this as a one dimensional issue and it isn't that simple... a wage in the U.S. being higher doesn't necessarily mean our jobs will be offshored. Mine hasn't and I make a hell of a lot more than an Indian developer who could probably do what I do.

example:
lets say my wage because of the unions is $10/hr for a job making widgets. My company is thinking about offshoring my job.

lets say a guy in SA will make widgets for $2/hr.

Is my company going to offshore when there is a $8/hr difference? Maybe so. That's a big margin.

Now what if the union didn't exist - lets say the actual wage due to economic forces goes down to around $7/hr in the US. to make widgets.

Is the same company going to offshore when there is a $5/hr difference? Maybe not. Why? Because there's more to the cost of offshoring than a simple formula of who will work for less pay. Quality of work is probably going to be higher in the U.S. - Workers are happier, better fed, more well rested, etc. Also if you stay in the U.S. you don't have human rights issues and negative publicity, you don't have to worry about unstable governments interfering, you don't have to worry about international laws being different, you don't have to worry about language barriers. The list goes on. There are plenty of solid reasons not to offshore, and even with a price gap in labor costs, most companies won't do it. You CAN still make good money in the U.S. without unions and without your job going offshore.

 

Ok, I don't need to justify my position on this earth, until you have worked at a non- airline that makes you sleep in a Hanger, or shorts you pay, changes your Flight time in the computer to make you appear FAA Legal to fly more, pay you far below industry average, etc then come talk to me. I have worked at a non-union airline, and now that I am at a Union airline I can justify my stance on why I am pro-union.

 

Joey, why do you think American companies feel the need to move labor to cheaper regions? Based on your answers I assume you're thinking they're just greedy bastards in search of maximum profit and the ability to bully their workers.

Have you thought about the need to compete? I'm in a business that sells widgets. If company Y, based in another country, call sell their same widget here in America for less than I can sell it then my workers are completely screwed, aren't they? The cost of our widgets are 80% materials and capital (automation to reduce labor as much as possible). Margins were never amazing. I think you're missing the aspect that most outsourcing is for commodities that can be produced anywhere.

Do you figure our business should be protected somehow? I mostly disagree. Either your markets are open or they aren't. I do think we should have reciprocal trade tariffs with countries that make our exports less competitive.

Or that our management has been hiding obscene profit all these years? Not true, unless you consider 10-15% ROI obscene.

Widget makers need the flexibility to compete. Unions deny that flexibility. Entitlements are evil.

 

[QUOTE=Penforhire,Sep 18 2008, 07:14 AM] Joey, why do you think American companies feel the need to move labor to cheaper regions?