Joey, I see what you're saying about the protection of the average workers' rights. I myself am just a working joe just like yourself, and really do not have any ambition to really immerse myself into the corporate world despite it being my highschool/college ambition, so I'll never be or am aspiring to be a CEO who will retire off of 5 years of failiing a company, lol.
The thing that people need to grudgingly embrace is globalization. And let's not even start about calling it bad, everyone on this board has benefitted from it, after all our VINs start with J. You're right, it isn't fair that we ship out jobs to places like India and what not, but you can also say that it's not fair that they open plants in North Carolina as opposed to Fresno, CA.
Also, need to understand that most producers would prefer to keep their operations local, especially if they're selling in that market. As much as the big 3 is outsourcing their work, the big japanese makes and hyundai are opening plants here in the US, and the UAW for the most isn't touching them.
I've never felt enslaved to work for anyone, in CA we have free will employment. Now if I didn't create options for myself by not going to college or dropping out of high school, and therefore working entry level retail or on a production line is all I can do, it maaaaay society/parental/education/government/etc fault, but it certainly is not my boss' fault, and unions directly affects producers, not the other reasons I mentioned.
Embrace the jewish (I'm not a jew) way of thinking, we're all self employed, and our business is offering a service to the our clients, like your boss for instance.

 

In your line of work, unions are a MUST? Ever heard of the US military? They fly a whole bunch of different platforms pretty successfully, under very hazardous conditions, with an excellent safety record. And, oh yeah, no union.


All of your problems seem to be wrapped up in these two quotes:


I don't know why you think companies exist, but I can tell you it ISN'T for the following reasons:

1. To make sure you have a job
2. To pay you money
3. To serve some greater good like flying people around


No, the SOLE reason companies exist is to MAKE MONEY FOR THE OWNERS OF THAT COMPANY. And, maybe you don't understand that "shareholder" is just a fancy word for owner. So yes, if I am an investor in your airline, and I found out that your airline was paying you $5k more a year than every other airline for no good reason, I'd be pissed about it.

Airline pilots are skilled, but it is a job with a fairly large applicant pool, and not a big disparity in talent. The best pilot in the world does the same job as a mediocre pilot; they both fly X routes to deliver passengers. So if they pay you $5k/yr less, and you get pissed and leave, they can just hire the next guy who is just as good a pilot. By being an excellent pilot, you can't make me, the "owner" any more money than an average pilot does. This does assume that the baseline for pilots includes the criteria of "people who don't crash"; a bad pilot crashes, but neither a good pilot nor an excellent one does, so what does an excellent one bring to the table, financially, that a good one doesn't? He doesn't fly more routes, he doesn't carry more people, he doesn't make me any more money. So once there is a baseline, there's no reason to pay a whole ton to retain more pilots, since there is an excess supply right now.


Sorry, that sucks, but it's true.

 

Take a guy like Mullaly. He was a world-class CEO at Boeing, and making, let's pretend, $20M a year.

Ford needs a really good CEO, because they have problems. So what do they have to do?

I'm Mullaly, coasting along at my successful company, making $20M a year. What is going to tempt me to go work at Ford, a company that is NOT doing well, where I KNOW that I will be blamed for not turning it around immediately, where a lot of the problems are out of my control and were caused decades ago, and where my name will be dragged through the mud. And if I don't succeed (which is likely) it will be hard to get another CEO job.


So, am I going to go work for you for $500k? Of course not! You need to pay me WELL over what I was making at my previous cushy job. Just like if you make $50k at Boeing, you aren't going to quit and go work for $30k at Ford; if you make $20M at Boeing, you probably want at least $30M to go work at Ford!

 

The last few posts have been dead on, except for Chris S, hes too blinded by the bottom line...............I hate to tell you but its your mentality (make as much as you can, pay as little as you can, sell it for as high as you can, as quickly as you can.......) is why the DOW has lost what 800points in the least week?

The thing is, you take out the CEO, and a company will run for a LONG TIME, basically without a hiccup, you take away the labor group, guess what? You got it Company is BK in a matter of time, the airlines it would take weeks if that long at all.


COMPARING THE MILITARY TO A CORPORATION IS REDICULOUS

 

One comment.

You CANNOT compare Military with Private Industry! That is eggs and oranges.

please continue...

 

In terms of profit, no, of course not. But Joey here was claiming the Union was necessary to maintain the SAFETY of the airline, not the profit. You can run a safe program with no union, as the military has demonstrated.

 

nonono, I sad the Union can promote more safety issues such as more Rest requirements etc.......

Airline A with a Union requires 11 hrs rest between flights, airline B, the non Union airline only requires 8 hrs, let me explain that to you!

I get done flying, as in we open the Cabin door at 1130PM, my "rest starts" so I then have to do the post flight, go walk outside wait for the hotel van, take a 30 minute ride to the hotel, check in get undressed get to bed, its now 1230, takes me 30 minutes to fall asleep its now 1am!!!!!, well guess what !my show time is 730am, because thats 8hrs from 1130, so in order for me to be there at 730AM I have to get the hotel van at 7am, which means I have to wake up at 6am, so all in all its what 5hrs of sleep?

That sound safe to you? well believe me its not, and like that COMAIR crash FATIGUE is a very serious issue

 

No, breaking the rules (NINA and NINJA home loans) is what caused the problems we are currently having. Did greed contribute to that? Sure. But at the end of the day, the system would have worked if everyone followed the rules. And you don't need a union to make people follow the rules. And I hate to break it to you, but "make as much as you can, pay as little as you can, sell it for as high as you can, as quickly as you can......." is the basic tenant of capitalism. If company A, B, and C all make widgets and employ their workers at $10/hr, and company D comes along and pays $15/hr, does that make sense if they are commodity workers? If they lowered their pay to $11/hr, sure the workers would be pissed, but would they leave and go to A, B, or C?



You think so? You need workers, obviously, but you don't think there are 5 other capable pilots who could move in and do your job tomorrow if they fired you or you quit? Versus the CEO, how many people could really move right in and do his job with no training if he quit tomorrow?


So's your spelling. But again, see my post above; you claimed your airline wouldn't be safe with no union. The US military runs "4 airlines" with no union, and they do just fine as far as safety.

 

[QUOTE=Chris Stack,Sep 18 2008, 09:14 AM] No, breaking the rules (NINA and NINJA home loans) is what caused the problems we are currently having.

 

What of that can ONLY BE DONE BY A UNION?

The military has an 8-hr crew rest time, and 8-hour "bottle to throttle" rule. It is run and enforced with no union.

Couldn't airline C have the same rules as yours and no union? So what makes the union so special in this situation where they are REQUIRED in order to have that rule set?