Honda and Motorsports
03-03-2011, 11:08 AM
#31
Step, quit being an a$$/yourself. SuperGT is not a top flight international series. NASCAR, god forbid is. Indy, well kind of is (and very much was in the past). Why do those top flight sports cars not race outside of Japan? I never said MotoGP wasn't though they are not cars.
Ford has plenty of racing history though they are currently not heavily involved in any thing other than NASCAR.
Why do you think it's a good idea to be a complete a$$ when replying to people? Seriously, even when you are making a decent point you come off as a complete tool. It's even worse that you have been very wrong in the past.
Mods, why hasn't step been experienced the ban hammer... well perhaps he did since he is afraid to tell us who he thinks he was in the past.
Ford has plenty of racing history though they are currently not heavily involved in any thing other than NASCAR.
Why do you think it's a good idea to be a complete a$$ when replying to people? Seriously, even when you are making a decent point you come off as a complete tool. It's even worse that you have been very wrong in the past.
Mods, why hasn't step been experienced the ban hammer... well perhaps he did since he is afraid to tell us who he thinks he was in the past.
03-04-2011, 12:17 AM
#32
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The problem is in the US FF owners decided they don't want to be forced to upgrade. In Europe FF was updated to a new motor. The new For dmotor is more reliable than the Kent and doesn't need to be rebuilt twice a season to stay competitive. The problem is putting the new motor in older cars isn't trivial. So if you made the Zetec or the later Duratec motor legal in US FF you would force an upgrade since the 116hp Kent would instantly be uncompetitive with the 150hp new motor. The new motor is also simply too big for some chassis.
The Fit motor is what the US FF guys really wanted. It's physically similar in size and weight to the old motor. That means club racers don't have to radically change their cars to change to the Fit motor. It also will be tuned to have basically the same power as the Kent. That means people who are happy with the Kent or have a lot of money invested in Kent motors won't have to upgrade. Remember in the US FF is club stuff. If you tell the drivers they are forced to upgrade many will go home instead.
Honda's plan with the Fit motor in FF was to work their way into the US racing scene. Honda was represented in Indy but really nowhere under that except in production based cars (No, Step I'm not talking about motorcycles). HPE saw the place Mazda has in the stepping stone racing seres. Mazda has Spec Miata, some classes where heavily modified Miatas run as well as F Enterprise, F Mazda and F Pro Mazda. The guys in CA seemed to think there was a business case in trying to get into more grass roots racing in the US. Rather than talk about it here, why not read about the Fit motor in FF on SCCA forums? You might learn a thing or two.
The Fit motor is what the US FF guys really wanted. It's physically similar in size and weight to the old motor. That means club racers don't have to radically change their cars to change to the Fit motor. It also will be tuned to have basically the same power as the Kent. That means people who are happy with the Kent or have a lot of money invested in Kent motors won't have to upgrade. Remember in the US FF is club stuff. If you tell the drivers they are forced to upgrade many will go home instead.
Honda's plan with the Fit motor in FF was to work their way into the US racing scene. Honda was represented in Indy but really nowhere under that except in production based cars (No, Step I'm not talking about motorcycles). HPE saw the place Mazda has in the stepping stone racing seres. Mazda has Spec Miata, some classes where heavily modified Miatas run as well as F Enterprise, F Mazda and F Pro Mazda. The guys in CA seemed to think there was a business case in trying to get into more grass roots racing in the US. Rather than talk about it here, why not read about the Fit motor in FF on SCCA forums? You might learn a thing or two.
Well, cost comparison is easy - an upfront outlay of $12K for the motor kit if you already have a chassis they have a kit for. Vs. a $3500 Kent rebuild every couple years if you race it frequently and want the podium every time. Your tire costs will exceed the rebuild costs in the same period. And the rebuild is mainly insurance - these engines are driven hard every time they see the track, and top competitors spend a lot of money looking for any edge they can get. The last thing they want is engine failure mid-season, or leaving power on the floor that a good engine builder can give them.
You said yourself - "the US FF owners decided they don't want to be forced to upgrade." Honda has decided they want to sell more engines, and managed to get SCCA club racing to help. I don't expect the Honda engine to take over the field.
03-04-2011, 05:38 AM
#33
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Nunco,
The Honda durability claims are not out of thin air. First, look at the experience of the F2000 vs FC owners. The F2000 motor which, like the Fit engine, is run at basically stock power has proven to be very very good. It has all but eliminated the need to rebuild engines. Some have 10,000 race miles and still work as well as new. Is there ANY reason to think the Fit engine won't work just as well?
The cost comparison is easy. The price of a national level Kent is $10k or more. For a new FF the price of a Kent package is just as high as that for the Fit. That $3500 Kent rebuilt is a complete overhaul. Many people partially rebuild the motor twice a year. Yes, for some the Kent will be cheaper. For any new car the Kent is far more expensive. Also, many racers have commented that they like the fire and forget nature of the Fit motor just as they like the same thing about the Ford 2L Zetec motor. The fact is the Kent motor has been a negative for the class. Stability is good but sadly Ford didn't have a near drop in package in the US. Honda now does. I hate to see Formula Ford changed to Formula F but that is it.
I don't see Honda taking over the field right away but just as happened with the FC vs F2000 cars, once engine parity has been reached you will see more and more people move to the Fit. Happily that will bring down Kent prices for those who don't want to change.
The Honda durability claims are not out of thin air. First, look at the experience of the F2000 vs FC owners. The F2000 motor which, like the Fit engine, is run at basically stock power has proven to be very very good. It has all but eliminated the need to rebuild engines. Some have 10,000 race miles and still work as well as new. Is there ANY reason to think the Fit engine won't work just as well?
The cost comparison is easy. The price of a national level Kent is $10k or more. For a new FF the price of a Kent package is just as high as that for the Fit. That $3500 Kent rebuilt is a complete overhaul. Many people partially rebuild the motor twice a year. Yes, for some the Kent will be cheaper. For any new car the Kent is far more expensive. Also, many racers have commented that they like the fire and forget nature of the Fit motor just as they like the same thing about the Ford 2L Zetec motor. The fact is the Kent motor has been a negative for the class. Stability is good but sadly Ford didn't have a near drop in package in the US. Honda now does. I hate to see Formula Ford changed to Formula F but that is it.
I don't see Honda taking over the field right away but just as happened with the FC vs F2000 cars, once engine parity has been reached you will see more and more people move to the Fit. Happily that will bring down Kent prices for those who don't want to change.
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