zze86

For sure the emissions was a huge reason why the 4age shined so bright compared to the big block V8s. The domestics couldn't pull their head out of their @$$es fast enough to save themselves and it took almost two decades for them to catch up. I think the other thing to consider is that the Japanese were really coming into their own as far as automotive design and engineering and their economy was chugging along strongly. They could afford to build two distinct Corolla lines. The 80s era really set up the Japanese domination and super car era of the 90s and early 2000s.

But like I said, the AE86 was never popular in the US, cult following yes, but not popular. There were a number of cars that overshadowed the AE86 in the 80s, some of which are classics in their own right. It's sibling the MR2, the Honda Civic/CRX, the Mitsubishi Starion and RX7 to name a few. In the 90s, Tuner culture was all about the Civic/Integra or else big dollar RX7/Supra/3000GT/300ZX. The Miata took the lightweight, RWD mantle. The S13/S14 were niche cars. The AE86 was forgotten by all but a few.

Until Initial D came out. I became something of a local celebrity almost overnight cause everybody knew I drove those old RWD Corollas.

The point isn't about building an exact copy of the AE86. I would not DD a AE86 in today's traffic without a significant power bump. Even back when I was DDing a AE86, I do remember essentially having to gun it every time from a stop light just to get out of the way, lol. But at that age, that was part of the appeal really.

The point is that the 86 was never about having a lot of power but an engaging engine and chassis - that produced just enough power. It forced YOU to be better in order to keep up.

I'll have to completely disagree about one thing though, the AE86 is special. Yes, if there were more competent cars back then it may have been just a sidenote. Yes, its a relatively low limit car based off an econobox. Yes, it is dated in every way shape and form. But the sands of time says it was the right car at the right time...and reintroduced at the right time with the right messengers. It is rumored that the AE86/4age is what prompted Honda to put their VTEC technology in the Civic first and not the NSX. The Civic of course is what brought about the Tuner scene (and really breathed new life into the aftermarket hot-rodding scene) which laid the ground work for the drift scene in the US.

But enough with the history lesson for now,

I hear you. I think the Kouki S13 is still one of the best looking cars ever.. A lightweight, turbo RWD car would be cool. The more choices the better. But its definitely not in the spirit of the 86. The Celica has enough history of being RWD and having a turbo that, Toyota could make a case for that as the third pillar in their "three brothers" sports car program.

And I guess you missed my reference

xxyion

@zze86

I'm mostly in agreement with you about the 86's that were released recently. I had my supercharged at one point and actually had it taken off 6 months later because i felt the car was less engaging to drive. I did like how the car very much pushed me to just be a better driver. For me the car sat best with E85 and a tune, however thats just not viable for a lot of people.

The reason i would love the car with a turbo, is honestly just because i love turbos. I dont need it to be super fast. Hell even if they kept the car at 200hp and added a turbo for more torque that in itself would have been fine for me. For me its just a combination of two things that i really like in a car. Small 2-door coup, lightweight, RWD, easy to drift, looks good. And a turbo. That for me is awesome and we just dont have any affordable examples anymore that are new.

Honestly though, if i didnt have to sell my BRZ, i'd probably still be driving it. I LOVED that car. But the S2000 for me was a dream car before the BRZ was even realized and so the decision was easy.

zze86

I agree somewhat.

For sure, without Initial D the interest in the (ae)86 would not be anywhere near what it is...then I could pick up a 20v swapped AE86 for cheap, lol. I mean Holy sh!+ the prices on these things are crazy! I'm glad I still have a chassis sitting around all these years waiting for when I have enough free time to being her to glory.

As for the AW11 and NA being the better technical driver's car, they were....on pavement. One of the areas of motorsports that the AE86 shined and where it was sought after was for rally purposes actually. Which again speaks to the versatility of the chassis.

And yes, the majority were probably sold as a grocery getter. I know I bought two of mine, one of which was a coupe, from old ladies who used them just as that. The AE86 was Toyota's farewell song to the FR Corolla platform, kind of a transition phase, which was why they had two distinct Corolla lines during that time. Prior to that the Corolla was a FR platform. Afterwards, all FWD. In 1987, the final year of the AE86 in the US, Toyota also made a FWD Corolla hatchback that also featured the 4age.

You mention the Civic having the double wishbone setup. I mentioned that it was rumored the AE86/4age was what spurred Honda to give the Civic VTEC first and not the NSX. This was during the time that Honda was still trying to prove that a FWD layout could also be used for motorsports. And you must remember at the time, Honda was a VERY distant third place as far as the Japanese OEMs. The rumor was that they used the AE86/4age as the benchmark by which to beat. There has never been any solid evidence, no formal "yep, this is our benchmark" PR piece like today's marketing departments like to put out (and plus I think the old school Honda engineers had too much pride for that) and a bunch of other small details I've forgotten over the years but that's where the major storyline and musing leads us. As you referenced, why put a double wishbone setup on a grocery getter? Why put their F1 derived tech on a grocery getter first and not their freshly designed halo car?

But to your point of a inexpensive, easy to maintain FR car with good reliability and great gas mileage, I'd say adding a turbo kind of defeats the purpose. A turbo system is more complex, more expensive. On paper, a turbo setup sounds like it should get way better gas mileage than a NA car but real world driving has proven that is not the case except for maybe highway cruising.

TheDonEffect

As far as I knew the crx was targeting the first gen mr2, and the crx was underpinned by the EF.

I understand that turbos are complicated, but NA power doesn't come cheap in small displacement engines.

What I'm essentially saying is give the youngsters an affordable sleeper type car.

I've mostly owned na cars and all things equal I prefer it. But turbo just has amazing value that cant be ignored.

WolfpackS2k

Just to clarify a minor detail, the first Honda with VTEC was the Integra XSi in 1989 (JDM). First application in the US, after the NSX, was the DB2 GS-R. CRX was the first "Civic" to get it, and that was JDM only. First USDM Civic to get VTEC was the '99 Civic Si.

(of course I'm talking about DOHC VTEC, nobody cares about SOHC eco VTEC )

zze86

^Thanks for the clarification. CRX/Civic/Integra, I kind of just lump them all together in my head.

An interesting thought for the engine is a variant of the new Toyota M20A-FKS engine made for the new Corolla, which rides on the same TNGA platform (adapted for RWD) that the new 86 is planned to ride on. The 2.0L M20A-FKS is smaller and lighter than the 1.8L 2zr it is replacing and makes ~170hp @ 6600 rpm already (rev limit 7200 rpm?). From magazine test drives it seems the M20A needs to be revved already. If holding true to past Toyota nomenclature, the "F" indicates it does not sport a "G", or "performance", head. Since the new 86 is supposed to have a Toyota engine, it would be interesting to see if they develop a "G" variant of the M20A-FKS, possibly destroked(?) as the M20 is a bit undersquare already, so M18A-GKS(?).

Unfortunately, Toyota's ECUs are notoriously difficult to crack and the M20A seems like it has a ton of electronics on it - electronic VVTi on the intake cam, variable oil pump, electronically controlled cooling system, e-vacuum pump, e-active engine mounts, etc (more technical review) - so aftermarket EMS support may the limiting factor as far as tunability.

TheDonEffect

Or just drop in the fa20t.

Hakkaboy

Technically speaking, the '96 Del Sol was the first USDM "Civic" to receive the DOHC VTEC engine

engifineer

Which reminds me of this conversation with a guy at Northern Tool when I stopped in in the S2000:

"Man I love that car"
"Yeah its pretty fun"
"I have been trying to buy one forever but every one I find is an automatic"
"They only offered it in a 6 speed"
"No, all the ones I have found were autos, maybe the 6spd was only the JDM version?"
"No, they did not make an automatic at all. Are you sure you are not thinking about the Del Sol?"
"Yeah, isnt that what your car is?"

WolfpackS2k

^^totally forgot about that one!

^Oh geez, just nooooooooooooooooo