View Poll Results: RSX-S vs. Celica GT-S
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RSX-S vs. Celica GT-S
03-12-2003, 01:19 PM
#41
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The DC2 Type-R is probably the best FWD car ever, but the DC5 Type-R is definitely a notch below. I've read more than a couple reviews to this effect. It doesn't matter in this case because we aren't comparing the DC5 Type-R to the Celica. We're comparing a DC5 Type-S.
You're also forgetting that the Type-R versions of each chassis has an LSD.
You're also forgetting that the Type-R versions of each chassis has an LSD.
03-12-2003, 01:49 PM
#42
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I'm glad its not just me that thinks that the Celica is a girl car. I can't put my finger on what it is either. I hope I don't rub anyone the wrong way with my opinion.
03-12-2003, 08:49 PM
#43
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Not knocking the 2ZZ, but its current form, it is highly unlikely it will ever compete with the K-series, even on a "per liter" basis.
Simply put, the 2ZZ cylinder head is a generation behind the times. The cylinder head is the final arbiter of power and the 2ZZ head is on par with the B-series cylinder head, which was designed in the late 80's. That doesn't mean it can't make plenty of power, but when comparing the K-head to the 2zz head is like comparing a 1000cc V-twin to a 1000c I4 sportbike motor. The twin can make some pretty impressive power, but the liter bike crushes it for a given level of development.
Even if you could get cams for the 2ZZ and increase its size to 2.0 liters (and remember, the cams people are using right now for the K are Honda cams, not aftermarket. With the B-series, going to ITR cams was worth 6-10 hp, aftermarket cams netted 20-30 hp for the big monster cams. I expect something similar with the K), it would never have the ultimate potential of the K-series.
When you begin to get into the shape of the torque curve and overall drivability of the motor, the K-series again trumps the 2ZZ. On this point, I don't know why, as Toyota has been doing the VVT thing for awhile, but they didn't really seem to take advantage of it on the 2ZZ.
Note, this is not a Toyota vs. Honda thing. I don't own a K-series, but an F-series, and the K-series is, frankly, all things considered a better motor than the F-series.
On the other stuff, the handling and braking (with similar tires) are close enough that its a wash. Even on stock tires/brakes the RSX-S has set faster road course lap times in several comparison tests (but motor plays a role of course). And similarly equipped, the GT-S is actually a touch _more_ expensive than the RSX-S. Honda did their homework for sure, but I agree that the GT-S is a better looking, and better handling car in stock form. Its just that in the grand scheme of handling, the difference between the two cars is relatively small.
UL
Simply put, the 2ZZ cylinder head is a generation behind the times. The cylinder head is the final arbiter of power and the 2ZZ head is on par with the B-series cylinder head, which was designed in the late 80's. That doesn't mean it can't make plenty of power, but when comparing the K-head to the 2zz head is like comparing a 1000cc V-twin to a 1000c I4 sportbike motor. The twin can make some pretty impressive power, but the liter bike crushes it for a given level of development.
Even if you could get cams for the 2ZZ and increase its size to 2.0 liters (and remember, the cams people are using right now for the K are Honda cams, not aftermarket. With the B-series, going to ITR cams was worth 6-10 hp, aftermarket cams netted 20-30 hp for the big monster cams. I expect something similar with the K), it would never have the ultimate potential of the K-series.
When you begin to get into the shape of the torque curve and overall drivability of the motor, the K-series again trumps the 2ZZ. On this point, I don't know why, as Toyota has been doing the VVT thing for awhile, but they didn't really seem to take advantage of it on the 2ZZ.
Note, this is not a Toyota vs. Honda thing. I don't own a K-series, but an F-series, and the K-series is, frankly, all things considered a better motor than the F-series.
On the other stuff, the handling and braking (with similar tires) are close enough that its a wash. Even on stock tires/brakes the RSX-S has set faster road course lap times in several comparison tests (but motor plays a role of course). And similarly equipped, the GT-S is actually a touch _more_ expensive than the RSX-S. Honda did their homework for sure, but I agree that the GT-S is a better looking, and better handling car in stock form. Its just that in the grand scheme of handling, the difference between the two cars is relatively small.
UL
Originally posted by curveslayer
That isn't really a fair comparison since your not giving the Celica engine the same mods. I never argued that the RSX-S engine was not better. I know it has a flatter torque curve and larger usable powerband; as it should since it is .2 liters larger. Plus, aftermarket support will always be better for Honda engines. Honda makes some of the best engines in the world. It's always been said that Honda is an engine company that just happens to build cars.
That being said, I could really care less how much better the RSX-S engine is. Especially since the difference between the two is so minimal with the same mods. I think that straight line racing is the most boring type of racing out there. I prefer a car to be fun to drive at all times, not just from stoplight to stoplight. What matters to me most is how a car handles. It's the same reason I bought the S2k. Many other cars may be faster in the straights, but very few are as fast on a road course or as rewarding for everyday use. Don't get me wrong, I like the RSX-S. But in my opinion, the Celica is more of a drivers car, it looks better, and its cheaper.
That isn't really a fair comparison since your not giving the Celica engine the same mods. I never argued that the RSX-S engine was not better. I know it has a flatter torque curve and larger usable powerband; as it should since it is .2 liters larger. Plus, aftermarket support will always be better for Honda engines. Honda makes some of the best engines in the world. It's always been said that Honda is an engine company that just happens to build cars.
That being said, I could really care less how much better the RSX-S engine is. Especially since the difference between the two is so minimal with the same mods. I think that straight line racing is the most boring type of racing out there. I prefer a car to be fun to drive at all times, not just from stoplight to stoplight. What matters to me most is how a car handles. It's the same reason I bought the S2k. Many other cars may be faster in the straights, but very few are as fast on a road course or as rewarding for everyday use. Don't get me wrong, I like the RSX-S. But in my opinion, the Celica is more of a drivers car, it looks better, and its cheaper.
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