F1 Germany
Originally Posted by lovegroova,Jul 27 2010, 09:24 PM
It's a fact relevant to the discussion.
Good article on this by Brian Moore
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorspor...orry-state.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorspor...orry-state.html
Were the above words a team order, illegal under F1 rules, or mere observations which left Felipe Massa free to decide whether he should allow team-mate Fernando Alonso to pass and thereby win last weekend’s German Grand Prix?
Is there any serious dispute that can be had over this? The use of the word “sorry” necessarily presupposes that the order to allow the pass will be effective and cannot be explained any other way to anyone.
The reasons cited to support the view that it does not matter are firstly that it is a silly rule and secondly, it is broken on many occasions.
Such observations were not ones which anyone thought sufficient to exculpate Dean Richards during ‘Bloodgate’, even though both could have been claimed with equal force. It is only when applied to a different set of known sporting facts that the flaws in such reasoning are fully exposed.
The extra insult comes because of the gibberish now being spouted by Ferrari and others to suggest that black is in fact white. To many avid F1 fans the controversy over this incident and subsequent $100,000 (£64,500) instant fine for the Ferrari team is frivolous bagatelle, something whipped up by a rabid media.
The fuss is actually about illegality. Whether those in the know, looking from what they see as a position of knowledge, believe the rule to be nonsense is not the point; it was introduced after Ferrari’s manipulation of the Austrian GP in 2002 had brought opprobrium on F1 and remains valid until repealed.
Participants cannot select which rules they wish to adhere to or else anarchy ensues. What is to stop teams taking Ferrari’s lead and breaking the ban on in-season testing, something that no lesser figure than Michael Schumacher has called similarly ridiculous?
Regarding the decision and incident itself: the utter drivel being proffered by way of explanation is revealed by looking at the event logically.
If Alonso was faster, and there was very little evidence that this was significant, he could have overtaken Massa anyway. Further, since the furore there have been contradictory accounts of why Massa made the decision, including the risible claim that the passing manoeuvre happened because “Massa made a small mistake when shifting up three gears at once”. If this was a freely made decision there would only have been one reason given, not several.
Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo has tried to deflect flak by attacking his detractors, saying: “Enough of the hypocrisy. This has always happened. If one races for Ferrari, then the interests of the team come before those of the individual.”
Perhaps he has forgotten the fit of moral outrage shown by his leading driver only a few weeks ago when Alonso attacked the Valencia stewards for what he called manipulating the result.
Without a shred of consideration for how Massa might feel, Alonso is now lauding his win, saying it was a “great feeling” and that “all wins are special” – well only if you are not a real sportsman. If you know you haven’t earned it you shut up and move on.
Is there any serious dispute that can be had over this? The use of the word “sorry” necessarily presupposes that the order to allow the pass will be effective and cannot be explained any other way to anyone.
The reasons cited to support the view that it does not matter are firstly that it is a silly rule and secondly, it is broken on many occasions.
Such observations were not ones which anyone thought sufficient to exculpate Dean Richards during ‘Bloodgate’, even though both could have been claimed with equal force. It is only when applied to a different set of known sporting facts that the flaws in such reasoning are fully exposed.
The extra insult comes because of the gibberish now being spouted by Ferrari and others to suggest that black is in fact white. To many avid F1 fans the controversy over this incident and subsequent $100,000 (£64,500) instant fine for the Ferrari team is frivolous bagatelle, something whipped up by a rabid media.
The fuss is actually about illegality. Whether those in the know, looking from what they see as a position of knowledge, believe the rule to be nonsense is not the point; it was introduced after Ferrari’s manipulation of the Austrian GP in 2002 had brought opprobrium on F1 and remains valid until repealed.
Participants cannot select which rules they wish to adhere to or else anarchy ensues. What is to stop teams taking Ferrari’s lead and breaking the ban on in-season testing, something that no lesser figure than Michael Schumacher has called similarly ridiculous?
Regarding the decision and incident itself: the utter drivel being proffered by way of explanation is revealed by looking at the event logically.
If Alonso was faster, and there was very little evidence that this was significant, he could have overtaken Massa anyway. Further, since the furore there have been contradictory accounts of why Massa made the decision, including the risible claim that the passing manoeuvre happened because “Massa made a small mistake when shifting up three gears at once”. If this was a freely made decision there would only have been one reason given, not several.
Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo has tried to deflect flak by attacking his detractors, saying: “Enough of the hypocrisy. This has always happened. If one races for Ferrari, then the interests of the team come before those of the individual.”
Perhaps he has forgotten the fit of moral outrage shown by his leading driver only a few weeks ago when Alonso attacked the Valencia stewards for what he called manipulating the result.
Without a shred of consideration for how Massa might feel, Alonso is now lauding his win, saying it was a “great feeling” and that “all wins are special” – well only if you are not a real sportsman. If you know you haven’t earned it you shut up and move on.
Originally Posted by lovegroova,Jul 29 2010, 12:15 PM
how about considering that Ferrari broke a rule that just about everyone knows is unenforcable and a bit daft
hot news:
some rules are more important than others!
and the fine reflects that
The fine is the maximum punishment available to the stewards, so the WMSC "court" referral is of more import.
It's quite similar to, though not of the same degree, as the Hamilton/McLaren lying scenario.
I can tell you Alonso's line already:
It's a matter of "wait and see" now.
It's quite similar to, though not of the same degree, as the Hamilton/McLaren lying scenario.
I can tell you Alonso's line already:
I was not aware that Massa had been told to let me pass, I thought he had a problem. My "this is ridiculous" comment was aimed at the back-markers.
What annoys me is that the likes of Alonso etc are saying it was done "for the good of Scuderia / Ferrari team"
If that's the case then it doesn't matter who was 1 & 2 as the point totals will be exactly the same for their "Scuderia" constructor tally!
I really hate what happened on Sunday and will be very dissappointed if the FIA don't dock them points! However it won't surprise me because Jean Todt is now in charge
Funny thing is I've just played golf today and I'm sat in my Ferrari polo shirt and old Tag watch
If that's the case then it doesn't matter who was 1 & 2 as the point totals will be exactly the same for their "Scuderia" constructor tally!
I really hate what happened on Sunday and will be very dissappointed if the FIA don't dock them points! However it won't surprise me because Jean Todt is now in charge

Funny thing is I've just played golf today and I'm sat in my Ferrari polo shirt and old Tag watch
Originally Posted by (S2K4ME),Jul 29 2010, 04:49 PM
What annoys me is that the likes of Alonso etc are saying it was done "for the good of Scuderia / Ferrari team"


I don't get.If teams apparently only care about the constructors' championship, what would it have mattered which way around they finished?
The drivers' championship is, always has been, and always will be most important, because this is what grabs the headlines.
Originally Posted by san2000,Jul 29 2010, 06:16 PM
The drivers' championship is, always has been, and always will be most important, because this is what grabs the headlines.
with that, I have never cared about who wins the constructors.
Originally Posted by san2000,Jul 29 2010, 05:16 PM
This is the
I don't get.
If teams apparently only care about the constructors' championship, what would it have mattered which way around they finished?
The drivers' championship is, always has been, and always will be most important, because this is what grabs the headlines.
I don't get.If teams apparently only care about the constructors' championship, what would it have mattered which way around they finished?
The drivers' championship is, always has been, and always will be most important, because this is what grabs the headlines.
If Alonso ends up winning the driver's championship by a couple of points (unlikely I know), will it be because he was the best driver over the year? No, it'll be because he had a more helpful teammate than whoever might end up as second.
Ah well, what is done is done, Hungary now, lets see what happens in this race and wait for the results of the WMSC...
Lets hope it starts better for McLaren and Red Bull tomorrow!
Lets hope it starts better for McLaren and Red Bull tomorrow!
Originally Posted by Dembo,Jul 29 2010, 08:05 PM
Indeed. There's a lot of prestige for the team and the sponsors in winning the driver's championship. But I can't understand why Ferrari, Fiat, the sponsors, or even Fernando Alonso himself wants to win the championship this way.
If Alonso ends up winning the driver's championship by a couple of points (unlikely I know), will it be because he was the best driver over the year? No, it'll be because he had a more helpful teammate than whoever might end up as second.
If Alonso ends up winning the driver's championship by a couple of points (unlikely I know), will it be because he was the best driver over the year? No, it'll be because he had a more helpful teammate than whoever might end up as second.






