I liked this I just saw on the BBC webbie

PAST TEAM ORDERS INCIDENTS
Jerez 1997: McLaren order David Coulthard to let Mika Hakkinen past to win
Australia 1998: McLaren order Coulthard to let Hakkinen past to win
Belgium 1998: Jordan order Ralf Schumacher not to race Damon Hill for the lead
Austria 2002: Ferrari order Rubens Barrichello to let Michael Schumacher past to win
Monaco 2007: McLaren order Lewis Hamilton not to challenge Fernando Alonso for the race win
Brazil 2007: Ferrari manipulate Felipe Massa's pit stop to put Kimi Raikkonen into the lead so he can win the world title
Germany 2008: Heikki Kovalainen lets McLaren team-mate Hamilton through so he can win the race following an error in team tactics
Singapore 2008: Renault order Nelson Piquet to crash to cause a safety car period that helps Alonso win
China 2008: Raikkonen hands Massa second place behind Hamilton so he is in a better championship position heading into the final race

 

Its not that clear cut.

1) The fans want to know what they are watching. In some ways the way it was done on Sunday was better because there was absolutley no question what was happening. Its worse when the fights are stage managed to make the fans beleive its something its not. I

2) Following on from 1) if it is a regulation in F1 then the fans want to see it enforced properly and consistently.

3) If 2) cant be done then accept it is a team sport and bin the rule which will acheive 1) above.

I totally get the hysteria and yes everyone knows its happening but at the same time everyone knows it shouldnt be and it ultimatley ruins races.

With regard to driver contracts I wonder if they are able to stipulate a clause that directly contravenes the rules?

I cant imagine that my thoughts are unique.

 

Everything up to and including Austria 2002 is fine because it was within the rules.

Monaco 2007: No-one let anyone past, so very different
Brazil 2007: That's how it should be done, with some subtlety
Germany 2008: They at least made it look like an overtake
Singapore: penalties were handed out (except to Teflonso)
China: it was at least towards the end of the season when Kimi couldn't win the championship, which is (arguably) not the case here.

It really all comes down to the radio messages we heard and the way in which it was done.

We heard Massa being "told" to let Alonso pass, then we heard the apologies, and then how magnanimous he'd been.

Then we had Massa stonewalling at the press conference, followed by Alonso lying, along with him making suggestions he thought Massa had a problem with his car.

We also saw Massa shifting up at 14,000rpm instead of 18,000rpm as he exited the corner.

Beyond reasonable doubt? Yes, which makes the barefaced lying even worse.

The trouble here is, Ferrari do not appear to have learned from anyone's mistakes, and especially McLaren's (Australia 2009).

And the dishonesty, for want of a better word, appears to have become systemic

 

I think it is that clear cut

Anyone who doesn't think team orders are exercised (or would be) by all teams is probably still at primary school

All the hand wringing also ignores the fact that a huge part of motorsport involves bending or breaking the rules in any way possible

FWIW I just think that team orders should be allowed

 

I agree.

It's an unenforceable rule and as long as teams are required to run 2 cars it is crystal clear they will try to maximise the results of a race to the benefit of the entire team whether the rules allow it or not.

 

Youve missed my point.
Yes everyone knows they exist but on the same score they know they are against the rules if it effects the outcome of a race.
The fans need to know what they are watching, is it two team members fight for the lead or a team consolidating and optimising their position in both championship?
It has nothing to do with niavity of the viewing public or primary school mentality.
Exciting moments in F1 occur when driver A comes out of the pits 10 seconds behind driver B with no more pits stops, driver A gradually chips away at Bs lead until the last few laps when A forges past at a chicane to the roar of the crowd. If the fans watch this unfold and then B promptly lifts and lets A through there not going to be happy bunnies are they? But if they know B is going to lift off when hes caught then atleast the position is transparent.

 

I'm not sure you've made a point

Anyone that thinks a team is going to allow its drivers to seriously race each other is somewhere beyond naive

And I really can't believe that more than a few densos really believe anything else

The answer to the question you pose is about as difficult to answer as what is 2+2?

Although it seems that the majority of the 'fans' also fail to grasp that the constructors' title is more important to most teams than the drivers'

 

I did, twice.

The first "The fans need to know what they are watching, is it two team members fight for the lead or a team consolidating and optimising their position in both championship?"

The second " If 2) cant be done then accept it is a team sport and bin the rule which will acheive 1) above."

It looked as though Vetel and Webber were racing as were Button and Hamilton.
It would have been a dull season had they not been allowed to race.

 

ok, it's the latter

I couldn't agree more - change the rule

the Red Bull racing was resolved by an accident and the Macca racing was resolved by team orders

the accident was certainly exciting and Hamilton and Button playing was good to watch but I don't think the season would have been much the poorer if neither had occurred

 

Ferrari always will do what they want.
They beleive they ARE F1 and F1 cannot live without them.

Until the FIA get the cahoneys to stand up to them nothing will change.