N1 Concepts Time Attack S2000
07-25-2010, 04:49 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by spdracerut,Jul 25 2010, 07:42 AM
1) Well, two points of view on being competitive: based on time or position. Based on time, the N1 car is way off. Based on position, it did well at Vegas, helped by the no-show of SSE and the break of FXMD.
2) While drifting isn't racing, it still hurts when you hit a concrete wall at 80mph. IIRC, the N1 car's caged is beefed up by the American team after they got it from the Japanese team.
3) On the swiss cheese, I understand what you are saying. You add in the cavet that a full tubular chassis is the goal, making the sheet metal unnecessary. I would agree IF the car had a full tubular chassis/significant tubular bracing. However, they often do not from what I've seen. I remember a white S2000 in Sport Compact Car a long time ago from some big Japanese tuner that swiss cheesed the entire car. However, no tube frame. It's a thing of someone doing something because some big team did it, but not understanding really what was going on.
It's the same with the Japanese tuners as it is the American tuners; a few do it right, most don't. There's a mentality built into our Import culture that JDM anything is better, and that's not true anymore. The cars being built by US teams are as good or better than the best of Japan. In general, the US teams build in better safety too, IMO.
2) While drifting isn't racing, it still hurts when you hit a concrete wall at 80mph. IIRC, the N1 car's caged is beefed up by the American team after they got it from the Japanese team.
3) On the swiss cheese, I understand what you are saying. You add in the cavet that a full tubular chassis is the goal, making the sheet metal unnecessary. I would agree IF the car had a full tubular chassis/significant tubular bracing. However, they often do not from what I've seen. I remember a white S2000 in Sport Compact Car a long time ago from some big Japanese tuner that swiss cheesed the entire car. However, no tube frame. It's a thing of someone doing something because some big team did it, but not understanding really what was going on.
It's the same with the Japanese tuners as it is the American tuners; a few do it right, most don't. There's a mentality built into our Import culture that JDM anything is better, and that's not true anymore. The cars being built by US teams are as good or better than the best of Japan. In general, the US teams build in better safety too, IMO.
(2) Yes an American company built the cage, they didn't modify a preexisting cage as far as I know. But the point is that Kojima went on some tirade about how every Japanese race car, including the N1 Concepts car, is a death trap (he even said the title of the story is in reference to the car basically being a Kamikaze plane) because they build substandard cages. So I was saying that obviously he is getting carried away because the cage on that car is better than spec.
(3) Here's the Opera S2000 chassis:
SCC story:
http://www.modified.com/features/0611sscp_...2000/index.html
Not a full tubular subframe in their car, but definately not swiss chessing the chassis. They do have a full cage welded in (looks to be at least 12 points) to the frame, and except for the trunk and inner door structure, it looks like the only holes they really cut were in non-essential braces and in some of the braces they welded in themselves. They also built the ASM chassis and as I understand, that chassis is basically a fully tubular chassis.
I think it's impossible to definitively state whether US or Japanese race cars are faster since they don't normally race in the same leagues. However, the N1 Concepts car, which is essentially a Japanese race car, won its region. Also, the Top Fuel Time Attack S2000 that came over to the US briefly was cleaning up against American teams. Even Kojima kind of backhandedly acknowledges that some big American teams have been beaten by Japanese teams working with far less of a budget.
I'm not a JDM fanboy, I help design and campaign an American race team. I just think it's getting old that American teams constantly talk trash about Japanese teams, then become completely shocked by some of the Japanese teams that come over for a race or two, and then proceed to talk trash once they leave again. Even Kojima used to be an engineer for Japanese companies and campaigns Japanese cars exclusively.
07-25-2010, 06:50 PM
#12
its not just cutting a bunch of holes in the car. They bevel the edges of the holes (ie punch them inward and round them out.) This actually makes it stronger than a flat piece of metal.\
So it ends up being lighter and stronger.
So it ends up being lighter and stronger.
07-25-2010, 08:04 PM
#13
Ah, the Opera only dimpled the additional gusseting they welded in.
GrandMaster, I have did a year of hands-on sheet metal work; the big hydraulic sheet metal stakes are fun, but watch your fingers!
Right now, the Cyber Evo is faster than the SSE Evo. I don't think you can say as a whole, who's faster between the Japanese and the US. Or the Germans, or Brits, or Aussies. I think speed is mostly an independent team factor, not based on country.
However, as far as tuner cars go, I think the best US cars are SAFER than their Japanese counterparts as a whole. I dunno, maybe it's because in the US, the average person has a lot more access to wheel-to-wheel racing (SCCA, NASA), so some of that knowledge trickles down to the tuner scene. Do the Japanese have the same access to privateer type racing?
Here's the N1 car's cage:
Panspeed FD:
Not much in the way of side-impact
R-Majic FD:
Would you want to sit next to that fuel setup? I think they had to build shielding between the fuel setup and driver before Superlap allowed them to compete.
This is the SSE Evo:
FXMD:
I know which cars I'd rather be in if I were in a crash.
GrandMaster, I have did a year of hands-on sheet metal work; the big hydraulic sheet metal stakes are fun, but watch your fingers!
Right now, the Cyber Evo is faster than the SSE Evo. I don't think you can say as a whole, who's faster between the Japanese and the US. Or the Germans, or Brits, or Aussies. I think speed is mostly an independent team factor, not based on country.
However, as far as tuner cars go, I think the best US cars are SAFER than their Japanese counterparts as a whole. I dunno, maybe it's because in the US, the average person has a lot more access to wheel-to-wheel racing (SCCA, NASA), so some of that knowledge trickles down to the tuner scene. Do the Japanese have the same access to privateer type racing?
Here's the N1 car's cage:
Panspeed FD:
Not much in the way of side-impact
R-Majic FD:
Would you want to sit next to that fuel setup? I think they had to build shielding between the fuel setup and driver before Superlap allowed them to compete.
This is the SSE Evo:
FXMD:
I know which cars I'd rather be in if I were in a crash.
07-26-2010, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by spdracerut,Jul 24 2010, 10:35 PM
1) It's underpowered: It's unlimited class, yeah, it's underpowered. The only reason it was even close at Vegas is because that track is a relatively slow/handling course. If it were Cal Speedway, forget it. Also, it lost to GST by 3 seconds IIRC, which is an enternity. GST is a big hitter, but not the biggest, SSE and FXMD are faster.
Originally Posted by spdracerut,Jul 24 2010, 10:35 PM
In the MotoGP qualifying for Laguna Seca today, the entire field of 17 bikes was separated by less than 3 seconds, 1:20-1:23 range.
Originally Posted by spdracerut,Jul 25 2010, 09:04 PM
However, as far as tuner cars go, I think the best US cars are SAFER than their Japanese counterparts as a whole. I dunno, maybe it's because in the US, the average person has a lot more access to wheel-to-wheel racing (SCCA, NASA), so some of that knowledge trickles down to the tuner scene. Do the Japanese have the same access to privateer type racing?
In Japan, lightness is generally favored over adding more HP. In that pursuit, choices obviously need to make. Here in the US, they just tend to throw more power at the problem. That is why a US team will likely never come close to the efforts of ASM. IMO that is the pinnacle of TA cars and the Scion TC is basically the reverse of that.
07-26-2010, 08:54 AM
#15
Originally Posted by Voodoo_S2K,Jul 26 2010, 07:55 AM
So on a track that favors handling, the N1 car does a pretty good job. FXMD broke after they had time to put in a good effort, not before.
Just so I understand, you are comparing a 3 second gap in the pinnacle of motorcycle racing in the world where teams spend $15+ million a year to a team that spends a mere fraction of that to race? From what I know about the respective teams, SSE, FXMD, and GST spend significantly more money than N1.
Your statements make it sound like Japanese companies don't know how to build a "safe" roll cage, but in your prior statement you say it "isn't exactly rocket science". In Japanese, there is a complete different mentality about who is ultimately responsible for one's own safety. They don't go around suing everyone for choices they knowing make themselves. Here in the US, organizations tend to over spec safety as more of a CYA, IMO.
In Japan, lightness is generally favored over adding more HP. In that pursuit, choices obviously need to make. Here in the US, they just tend to throw more power at the problem. That is why a US team will likely never come close to the efforts of ASM. IMO that is the pinnacle of TA cars and the Scion TC is basically the reverse of that.
Just so I understand, you are comparing a 3 second gap in the pinnacle of motorcycle racing in the world where teams spend $15+ million a year to a team that spends a mere fraction of that to race? From what I know about the respective teams, SSE, FXMD, and GST spend significantly more money than N1.
Your statements make it sound like Japanese companies don't know how to build a "safe" roll cage, but in your prior statement you say it "isn't exactly rocket science". In Japanese, there is a complete different mentality about who is ultimately responsible for one's own safety. They don't go around suing everyone for choices they knowing make themselves. Here in the US, organizations tend to over spec safety as more of a CYA, IMO.
In Japan, lightness is generally favored over adding more HP. In that pursuit, choices obviously need to make. Here in the US, they just tend to throw more power at the problem. That is why a US team will likely never come close to the efforts of ASM. IMO that is the pinnacle of TA cars and the Scion TC is basically the reverse of that.
The point of showing the 3 second gap is that it shows how huge of a gap that is in terms of motorsports. At Pro Solo II nationals, sometimes it comes down to the tens of thousands of a seconds. Granted, that's auto-x on shorter courses, that still only translates into a few tenths of a second on a road course equivalent time. As you know, it gets exponentially more expensive to go incrementally faster. The N1 car placed well because honestly, there's not a ton of good competition. So I'm using a different metric to measure performance, and that's time differential.
I think you're correct about the cultural differences. That's why the DOT or whoever mandates tire pressure monitoring systems, traction control, stability control and all that garbage I'd rather not have on my car. Also why the Germans have the 'Ring where all you do is pay a toll and go. There are certainly Japanese that do know how to build proper safety, just look at Super GT and the old Honda and Toyota F1 teams. My contention is that maybe that knowledge doesn't get transfered to the 'tuners'. Or, they do make the conscious decision to not fortify their cages to the degree that I think is more typical in the US in the interest of saving weight. It's maybe a mix of both.
At the end of the day, we participate in dangerous activities. You can say that we accept responsibility for whatever happens, including death. Even if you're in a car fortified like a tank, there's still the possibility of death. But, if someone died because of an easily preventable safety issue, I doubt it makes the family/friends of the dead person content with the knowledge that the person died accepting the risk, knowing their safety setup was not as good as it could have been.
08-21-2010, 02:36 AM
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Yes, the car isn't caged like some other US built cars. It was modified to conform to US spec rules and for driver safety. Take a look at J's other Super Taikyu cars (which is the same type of cage that came with the car when it arrived in the states). The cage was then modified by Redzone Performance in Fremont, CA for added strength and safety.
The car has proven time and time again that it can and will post great lap times. With the power differential compared to other cars in the same field, it's quite amazing with the current times. N1 is currently building a 2.5L Kraftwerks supercharged motor. I think that once they put in that built motor they will be much closer to other cars with much more money put into their cars.
If you want to compare the FXMD or SSE cars, let's add $50k+ into the N1 and see where it ends up. We can already see that the car isn't too far off of the rest of the car in it's field. The car has also been run for it's 1st full season. There is plenty of room for development and to improve lap times drastically in that car.
The car has proven time and time again that it can and will post great lap times. With the power differential compared to other cars in the same field, it's quite amazing with the current times. N1 is currently building a 2.5L Kraftwerks supercharged motor. I think that once they put in that built motor they will be much closer to other cars with much more money put into their cars.
If you want to compare the FXMD or SSE cars, let's add $50k+ into the N1 and see where it ends up. We can already see that the car isn't too far off of the rest of the car in it's field. The car has also been run for it's 1st full season. There is plenty of room for development and to improve lap times drastically in that car.
08-21-2010, 10:32 AM
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^ I agree. The SSE Evo was built by a formula race team in a matter of months. The car has a good amount more $$ invested as well as more US race time than the N1/J's s2000. Idk if the new motor will help it, but i think for the power diffence between it and it's competitor's, it's doing an outstanding job. I know GST's WRX is in the 600whp area. That's x2 the power of the N1/J's car with only maybe 300lbs more weight. I don't believe the s2000 in general can really compete for top 4-5 position's in the unlimited class anyway. The AWD turbo's are dominate. Very few other's see 2-3 seconds within the SSE,HKS,Cyber Evo,Tomei/Cusco team's. I personally think the S2000 has it's limits on bigger tracks and really shines on the touge or small/more technical tracks.
Now as for the Japanese race team's safety regulation's....I do agree they don't focus as much on saftey as US team's. It seems as though function is first on they're list. But at the same time, i don't see any TA car's in Japan wreck badly and when they do the driver is untouched. Lucky? Idk?
Now as for the Japanese race team's safety regulation's....I do agree they don't focus as much on saftey as US team's. It seems as though function is first on they're list. But at the same time, i don't see any TA car's in Japan wreck badly and when they do the driver is untouched. Lucky? Idk?
01-18-2011, 05:34 PM
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i dont agree...look at the little bit of competing the Cwest BC car did in unlimited. With a low output turbo motor...that car was pretty damn competitive.
i think an S2000, with the right setup could compete with the big AWD turbo cars. The car would just need a lot of power and a lot of tire.
fact of the matter is...although AWD is amazing at leaving the corners...RWD can and usually can enter corners faster and also have faster mid corner speed...IF built right.
i think there's potential to build an unlimited class turbo S2000 widebody on slicks that can compete...
i think an S2000, with the right setup could compete with the big AWD turbo cars. The car would just need a lot of power and a lot of tire.
fact of the matter is...although AWD is amazing at leaving the corners...RWD can and usually can enter corners faster and also have faster mid corner speed...IF built right.
i think there's potential to build an unlimited class turbo S2000 widebody on slicks that can compete...
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