pwrofdrm

IF YOU RECEIVED THIS THREAD IN A PM, PLEASE READ IT THOROUGHLY!!!



Well I have a situation brewing and I figured I'd shed some light on it for the public. Not neccessarily to drag the seller's name through the mud (yet) but to gain outside input the the situation to make sure that I'm not doing anything wrong or unreasonable.

This is the original post:
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showt...0&#entry9556758

Now that I look at it, I see he's already trying to make a shit show out of it. Oh well.

Well here's the story. Everyone know's that there's three sides to the story, the buyer's side, the seller's side, and what actually happened. Well here's my side. I'll let you be the judge of whether it's right or wrong.

I agreed to purchase the diff off daniel for the sum of $1300 plus shipping, a total of $1385, swap the diff out with my stock one, and send my stock one back to him. I paypal'd the payment to him promptly when he asked (1/22/07), and I received a tracking number the next day as planned (1/23/07). The package ended up coming a day late, no biggie, no one's fault but UPS, and I had to pick it up from UPS on Friday morning (1/26/07).

Friday comes around, I get off work early, and I go at it. I was following xviper's install thread as shown here:

https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=85687

On the very first step I had a little trouble with some stuck bolts. I even made a thread about it on Saturday (before I knew I was getting screwed).

https://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=456318

So whatever, I get the bolts I need locally and put it back together. I get in the car, and take it for a quick spin around the block. Around 36-40 MPH I'm getting a VERY loud whine. Well I figured that could mean a couple things. Either the gears weren't installed properly, or they were just loud gears. I know the 4.57's were loud like this, but I never heard of 4.77's being loud.


So with this new problem on my hands, I decided it would be wise to drain the fluid in the diff before I sent my old one back. I drained the fluid out, and this is what I found:





So, I finished replacing the fluid with Mobil 1 80w-90 non-synthetic fluid, as recommended by Kaaz on their website. www.kaazusa.com

"It is important to use 80W/90 GL-5 specification gear oil on Kaaz LSD. We highly recommend using our own Kaaz LSD fluid."

I then got on here and PM'ed Billman250, the local NY Metro Forum S2000 Mechanic and asked for his opinion.

This is the the PM I sent Billman:
Sent: Re:OEM Parts EMERGENCY, Jan 28 2007, 03:25 PM

Hey Billman,

Thank's for the quick response! Fortunately my local Honda dealer did have the bolts I needed in stock, and I was saved a trip to the Hamptons. I'll remember you when I need some more though, I'm sure you'll bail me out sometime in the future.

Unfortunately, I have another dilemma I have to face now. I was hoping to gain some professional insight to my situation, and I'd like to know what you would do.

Let me give you some background: I purchased a diff off someone on this forum last week. It's an MY03 diff, with J's Racing 4.77 gears, a Comptech housing, and a Kaaz 1.5 way LSD. I was about to buy Hardtop guy's package with just the gears when I saw this listed and I hopped on it, considering what else I'd be getting for only $300 more. I picked this diff up for $1300 + shipping and it was shipped the next day. The arrangement was, he was to ship me this diff, I would swap it out with mine, and send mine back to him the next day.

Here's the problem. I installed it, checked the fluid level, and took it for a drive. It's nice and quiet and smooth up until about 36 MPH. From there through 39 MPH I'm getting a whining noise. After 39 MPH it goes away again and it's fine.

Being the paranoid person that I am, I decided to change the fluid in the diff today and inspect it. This is what I found:



There are some small metal shavings, and I found this one as well. This is the only one of this size, however:



I did some research, and found that some people said SOME metal shavings are expected between fluid changes. Honda even used a magnetic drain plug in the diff to isolate these shavings. So then, I decided to drain the fluid from my stock diff and compare. I cleaned the drain pan and drained the stock fluid into it. There were in fact some metal shavings in the stock fluid as well. I'm not sure when the last time my stock fluid was replaced, I bought the car in November. My car is a 2001 with 42k on it. It was purchased locally from an S2KI member.

Basically, here is my dilemma. I need to know if this kind of thing is normal for my "new" diff, or do I have something to worry about? I sell a lot of things online personally and have tons of vouches on this website, not to mention I run an aftermarket parts store here in Medford. About a year ago I got screwed in a transaction very badly and it cost me my old S2000. Since then, I'm very careful not to let myself get caught in a bad situation. Right now, I can retract the payment I made to him, and I have both differentials in my possession. I want to make sure I'm not going to get screwed while I still have the upper hand in the situation. I'm not looking to shaft this guy, there is a chance that this is either an honest mistake on his part, or that this isn't even anything to worry about.

If you can please get back to me and let me know what you think. I'd really appreciate it.

Thank-you,
-Evan

__________________________________

I didn't get a response from Billman yet, but unfortunately I didn't need to. I decided to go for another test drive around the block to see if the change in fluid would decrease the whining noise. I got halfway around the block and sure enough it was still there. In fact, it was even louder. I started to turn the car around and all of a sudden the car started shaking around the corner. As I drove home it got worse, to the point I was scared to turn into the driveway it was vibrating so much.

We've all seen the threads on here, so I don't have to tell you that there was something terribly wrong with the diff. The shaking, the chunks of metal in the fluid, the unusually low price ($1300 for a diff with $2400 worth of parts installed alone?), it all pointed in the wrong direction. Not to mention that the diff came off of a Full-Race turbocharged car.

I blame myself partially, I should have seen it coming. Just goes to show, if it sounds like too good of a deal to be true, it probably is.

So enough with the sad story, on to the situation. Luckily for me, I didn't get the chance to ship out my stock differential, as it was the weekend and FedEx was closed. I swapped my stock diff back in and all is well with my car now.

I contacted the Daniel and explained to him the problem through PM on S2Ki. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's pretty clear to me that he probably knew something was wrong with the diff. That's why he sold it so cheap. Judging by the fact that he said in his original for sale post that he was willing to swap the diff's out for local's personally, I doubt he expected it to break so soon. I'm counting my lucky stars that UPS delivered the package a day late and by the time I got it out FedEx was closed. I approached the seller very calmly, as anyone that knows me knows that I'm not a mean guy. I explained the situation, and said that if he would refund me my money I would ship the diff right back to him.

Here is the PM I sent him:

Sent: Reiff, Jan 29 2007, 12:49 PM

Daniel,

Unfortunately, there are much bigger problems than bolts. I was able to purchase the bolts at my local Honda dealer and finished installing the diff yesturday. I checked the fluid level and drove it around the block and noticed a loud whining noise. Although I expected them to be slightly louder than stock, the 4.77's are supposedly not supposed to whine THAT loud. So I went and picked up some 80w-90 Mobil 1 non synthetic fluid to do a change. This is the fluid that Kaaz recommends. Upon draining the fluid, this is what I found:





Although some shavings are expected, chunks like the second picture are not normal. So I changed the fluid out and took it for another drive around the block. I then noticed that while turning in either direction the whole car shook. As I drove home it got worse and worse, and so did the whining noise. By the time I pulled in my driveway it was horrible, and this was less than a 4 minute drive.

It seems as if the LSD unit in the differential unit you sold me is toast. Luckily I didn't ship my differential out yet, so I swapped it back in.

I haven't made a big deal about this yet. I will start by giving you the benefit of the doubt that you made a "mistake" and I will give you the opportunity to correct it. I'm not going to sit here and make threats on your life. I will tell you though that about a year ago I was involved in a situation where I got screwed, and it cost me my old S2000. Since then I do things much more securely.

So here is what needs to happen: refund me my payment and I will ship your differential back to you. What you do with it after that is none of my business. With this solution, I will be happy with my money back and you can still make out alright by either selling the differential (I don't doubt you'll get the same price for it as is) or fixing it. Kaaz does offer a rebuild service, which is fairly inexpensive. This is the only solution where both you AND I will make out. This is not the only solution though.

Please PM me when you refund my payment through PayPal and I will call in a pickup for your diff.

-Evan


________________________________

Daniel then called me and stated that "There was nothing wrong when I sent it to you."

Daniel's now claiming that I must have screwed it up when I changed the fluid out with anything but Kaaz LSD fluid. As you can see for yourself on their website though, you'll see that I changed it out for exactly what Kaaz reccomends (besides their own brand fluid).

I then said besides the changed fluid, how do you explain the chunks of metal in the diff when I received it?

His answer was that it must have been something I did in the installation.

Here is the PM he sent me in response to the one I sent above:


__________________________________
Reiff, Jan 29 2007, 03:27 PM

there is nothing wrong with that differential it worked perfect the day it was removed from the vehicle
j's gears are know to be a little loud
as far as your shacking goes you admited to striping out brakets and ghetto rigging stuff near the rear end

so send out my stock differential


___________________________________



So with that said, I'd really appreciate your input to the situation. If I've done business with you before, please chime in as well.

Thank you!
-Evan

Venomous S

Some shavings are expected on the kaaz lsd unit as it's the clutch material shedding. If the unit is fairly new, do expect some shaking when you are making a turn at very low speeds. This is the differential trying to lock both wheels when turning.
Now, when you are driving straight, there should be no clunking or no noise.

As far as the whine it is my understanding that the 4.77's did not whine. I know the 4.57's did. I had them and they whined loud.

do the chunks of material that you are getting appear to be clutch material or metal chunks from the gears themselves?

pwrofdrm

I have inspected the gears already, and it's definately the LSD. Gears are in fine shape.

As far as the shaking is concerned, although I'm no professional, I highly doubt that it's normal. It got gradually worse during the test drive (started out as a small, hardly noticable vibration, ended with it feeling like the rear end was about to a'splode)

I'd really like someone to take a look at the LSD and give me a professional opinion.

Billman???

Billman250

First off...how did you "rig" the dif? Explain in detail, or copy and paste from somewhere, I'll try to determine if the install was at fault. It doesn't sound like it is....

Billman250

Ok...the two aluminum brackets on top of the dif. Each one has an OEM bolt, and each one has a bolt going through it with a nut on top because of a stripped hole in the aluminum correct?

I wouldn't call it a 100% fix, but it will hold up fine, and will in no way affect the internal condition of the dif. The only way YOU could have affected the install in a negative way is if you used the wrong fluid, or you changed the drive flange on the dif. It appears you have done nothing wrong.

Defender

Well ... maybe it was just time for the darned thing to break ... stranger things have happened.

IMHO : Purchaser should have the guts of the drive inspected by someone else and if problems are found, good photos should be taken. The drive was not sold with a guarantee ... except that there was a representation that it worked . Indeed it sounds like it did work .. for a short while; maybe it still works .

If in fact a problem is found within the rear and it can not be determined when the failure took place .. there is no easy solution to the problem.

Bear in mind though that apparenlty the rear was not sold with any quarantee; except that I assume there was an understanding that it would not be DOA .

Is there any chance that the problems when turning could be caused by a radical alignment or different tires ?

Eliot

Venomous S

If you are saying that the gears are fine, then the shavings have to be from the clutches. If there was an improper break-in procedure on the Kaaz unit then, the clutches will wear prematurely. To properly break-in a kaaz LSD, you have to do figure 8's in a parking lot following the procefure in the manual for about 20 minutes or so, then drain the fluid. We all figure the properbreak-in procedure was followed by the seller when he bought it new.

pwrofdrm

Bill you are correct, that is how it is.

I did not change the drive flange on the diff, as my car is an MY01 and his is an MY03, I was told that they are the same, and they are.
w-
I did change the diff fluid after the fact, but I used Mobil 1 80w-90 Non-Synthetic. This is what Kaaz recommends on their web site. I still have the empty bottles, as well as the receipt to prove it.

As far as tire size and alignment are concerned, I have 16x7" F and 16x8" SSR Integral A2's on the car with OEM sized Bridgestone Blizzak Tires. The car was actually aligned at Honda 2 weeks ago, which I also have the receipt to prove.

Bill, would you be willing to look at the differential if I took it to you? Or if not, could you recommend someone to look at it for me?

Thank you!

HowS2kru

ya man that sucks..but when u buy used equipment... ur bound to be unlucky sometimes...
1-why would you even consider buying gears/lsd from a car that u knew was turbo//aka which means it was beaten on...
2-the guy is sellin it soo cheap!!!
3-if u were to be in the same predicament..but ur the seller..dont u think youll be saying the same thing????????

im not tryin to talk you down or ne thing..just be smart with investments..gear/lsd any thing that really has to do with engine parts should always be bought new...
sometimes saveing a few..well end up costing more later...

good luck to u and this problem

NFRs2000NYC

I say.....

Pay Bill the money to tear into it a poke around. If something IS indeed wrong, make the seller refund you all the money you paid, PLUS the money you paid Bill to inspect it. If Bill determines the diff is fine, then you keep it, and know you have a good diff.

Win/Win.