2x6spds-

I think you're getting a little carried away Mideast-wide hatred of the US. Remember, we already have prepositioned assets in Saudi, they depend on us for defense from a really nasty neighborhood (read Iran and Iraq), and we're going to be there to defend our oil supply, regardless of who likes it or not.

Besides, we can easily spread our air assets out. The B2s and some of the B1s and B52s can be refueled from the US. The rest can be refueled from European bases. The carrier battle groups can be parked in the Indian Ocean. The F15s, F16s, F117s, A10s, and F111s can be based in Incirlik Air Base in Turkey, Diego Garcia, and elsewhere. The Tomahawks can be fired from the carrier Battle groups. There are lots of ways to mount a commando raid to snatch or take out Bin Laden.

Your idea of toppling hostile Mideast governments, if possible, is long term. I'm talking short term -- as in now. We have to retaliate now.

I'm not even going to respond to baked. He's so totally full of sh*t, I could cut his head off and tip it out.

I'm also bailing out of this thread, I've got a business to run.

 

Having read through the above, all I can say is that the vast majority of Arabs, Muslims, or Christians were horrified by the attack and the loss of life.
America will emerge through this nightmare stronger than ever before, because of its people who believe in the Constitution which has at it's the foundation liberty and justice for all. This is further guaranteed by the democatric process which ensures the participation of its people.
America won't attack innocent people because that would make them no better than the terrorists.
The pain that all Americans feel now is echoed all over the world, inlcuding the Arab and Muslim world.
These madmen will be made to pay, no doubt.
As for the Taliban, well their brand of Islam is unique. No country other than Pakistan have recognized them. They are no better than the criminals they harbor, but their people have suffered enough under the Russians, civil war, a terrible drought this year in addition to life (what kind of life is this) under the Taliban.
Osama bin Laden is a loser. He has been blown out of all proportion into something he is not. His assets have been frozen for years, so who would follow a bankrupt dissident? Don't forget he was trained by the CIA to fight against the Russians. He was America's allly then. Don't make him into a martyr for others to follow. If he is ivolved, bring him to justice, as was done with Milosevic.
As to the Palestinians dancing in the streets, well this smells like a setup. I doubt that a people who suffer under a brutal agressor (Israeli occupation) every day would be so happy that the same had happened to anyone else.
"Dancing in the other Arab Capitals" Utter nonsense. I repeat, the vast majority of Arabs, Muslims, or Christians were horrified by the attack and the loss of life. There was no dancing.
I am very worried of a backlash against American Arabs, American Muslims or just any Arabs or Muslims living in America. Remember what the US did to Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor. This cannot be allowed to happen now, otherwise the Terrorists will have won.
Peace and health to all.

 

With all the fractured logic and irrational thought and silliness going on here, and elsewhere in other internet groups, I have assembled a list of my Top Five Rational Thoughts. I'll post it here for you guys. I'd like to hear any comments.

First, an introduction: I totally disagree with a random bombing of Afghanistan. I totally disagree with any form of ethnic cleansing, and I totally disagree with fear-driven impulse. I am largely pacifist, and believe the U.S. has an obligation to demonstrate our ability to handle these kinds of situations with little or no loss of life outside the scope of necessity. But I do not intend to argue that there is no scope of necessity.

When an American kills several other Americans, he is usually put to death. We are a superpower. When a terrorist kills several thousand Americans on American soil, we have every right to transcend geographic and political boundaries and deal with this murderer as an American -- in the manner dictated by our culture. People claim we shouldn't retaliate because the Middle East will dislike us further. None of these idiots would claim we shouldn't have put Timothy McVeigh down, because we have to foster an image of goodwill towards the citizens of his hometown. There are Americans, who have likely lost relatives, or relatives of friends, to this disgusting act, that want to convince others that the proper recourse is to tip-toe around tapping people on their shoulders.

My Top Five Rational Thoughts:

1) The U.S. is not in the middle east for its own gain. We put our troops in places where peace is broken, where one country seeks to gain wealth or power by hurting another. We prevented Iraq from wiping Kuwait off the map. We continually stop Palestinians from wiping Israel off the map. Why do we do this? Not because we have anything to gain in the issue -- but because we wish to discourage profiteering and violence. Some will argue all day long that we commit horrible acts of injustice upon the people of other countries in the name of our economy and greed. If we were really out there solely to bolster our economy, the UAE wouldn't even exist. It would have been bombed out long ago, replaced by a U.S. flag and American-made oil drilling equipment. Do we want to bomb the middle east? No. Do we want to negotiate fair oil prices with the rightful owners of the wells? Of course. The U.S., as the most powerful country in the world, could likely make nearly the entire globe a territory, by force, if it wished. The U.S. has never once, in history, instigated an attack againt a country only because it wanted something for itself. The reason we involve ourselves in world affairs, simply, is not because we are profiteers. Anyone who chooses to believe we are is either ignorant or simply trying to be dissident.

2) The U.S. wants to maintain the status quo, and this is sometimes a bad policy. Most Americans would like to literally freeze the boundaries of every country in the world, and make it an internationally enforced law that the borders are no longer open for discussion. The countries are as they will always be. Americans like the world just the way it is, with us on top of the food chain, weathly, well-fed, and comfortable. We want the world to stay forever just like it is now. However, most other countries are not weathly, well-fed, or comfortable, and for them the status quo is the enemy. We have to be respectful of each country's wishes to also be wealthy, well-fed, and comfortable. This is our only mistake.

3) Yes, the US has made some mistakes in its military actions. Yes, innocent people were killed in Vietnam. Yes, we bombed the pharmaceutical plant in the Sudan. This simply doesn't mean that we're a bad country, or that we do bad things. People in our country hate anything that interferes with civil liberty, but they demand swift and accurate justice. These two ideals cannot cooperate entirely. If you'd like to prevent drunk drivers from driving on your roads, you'll have to have the patience to sit through a traffic stop once in a while. We blew up a peaceful pharmaceutical plant, and it was a mistake, but it was a small mistake in a very important task. We repayed the owner for his loss. If we enter a war with Afghanistan, or any other country, there will likely be some civilian casualties. It is sad, but inevitable. We can only do the best we can to prevent it. The fear of killing more civilians, alone, is not a powerful enough reason to ignore the loss of thousands of our civilians. If you want peace, a few innocents will be almost unpreventably lost.

4) It is terribly unfortunate that the citizens of the world are trapped by their governments. I'm sure I would like many of the Iraqi or Afghan citizens if I were to meet them personally. I don't want to kill these people. No Americans do. But these rogue governments need to be stopped. We apply sanctions to thwart these governments, and the citizens are unfortunate hangers-on that cannot be separated. We do not target the citizens, but in Iraq's case at least, the government and the citizens are inseparable. It is not our fault, it is the Iraqi government's fault. If and when the Iraqi government folds, the people will be given a new government that does not hold them hostage, and their plight will be relieved. It is a terrible necessity that they must endure their government's sick throes of death. If a terrorist holds fifty people hostage in an airliner, and someone shoots the terrorist, but accidentally kills a hostage in the skirmish, that someone will still be regarded as a hero. If you can't get a clean shot, you have to take the shot you can get.

5) New-age disarmament utopian bullshit doesn't work. We can smoke our bowls all day long and talk about how everyone should just put down the guns and we'll all be friends. It sounds wonderful. It will never happen, at least not while groups, solely organized for the teaching of hate, exist. Sadly, asking for peace is not a rational argument, or a worthwhile method of thought. It often seems that many people miss the point the the other guys rather enjoy their guns -- and our aircraft.

Comments welcome.

- Warren

 

It's all good. Well reasoned and thoughtful. Thanks.

Mark

 

I thought some of you might like this, too:

> The following, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing. Its subject is
> America: The Good Neighbor. Widespread but only partial news coverage was
> given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon
> Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full
> text
> of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
>
>
> "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
> generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
> Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out
> of
> the debris of war by the Americans who
> poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of
> these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts
> to
> the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it
> was
> the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and
> swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
>
> When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries
> in
> to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
> Nobody helped. The Marshall
> Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged
> countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the
> decadent,
> warmongering Americans.
>
> I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
> erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
> country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
> Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them?
> Why
> do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
>
> Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on
> the
> moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
> about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American
> technocracy, and you find men on the moon-not
> once,but several times-and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and
> the
> Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at.
> Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here in our
> streets, and most of them,
> unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from
> ma
> and pa at home to spend here.
>
> When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through
> age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad
> and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose.
> Both
> are still broke. I can name you 5000 times
> when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you
> name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble?
> I
> don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco
> earthquake.
>
> Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned
> tired
> of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
> their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose
> at
> the lands that are gloating over their present
> troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

- Warren

 

It was very difficult to read the threads here, on the one hand I understand the anger we feel, but on the other...

Yes we need to take action against the government, and that means attacking millitary targets and maybe even the leadership. Here's my caution, I know we feel very strong and have a clear millitary advantage. I would remind many of you that what took place on Tuesday could easily happen again, and as we throw more and more of our freedoms away to keep our country "safe" who wins in the end?

I hope our government takes time to identify the culprits, plans a measured response, and punishes those who are responsible. But I also hope we take time to help the citizens understand that we are not after them - the more innocents we kill, the more terrorists we make!

 

Wonderfully said! Simple, succinct, and very easy to understand by anyone! When you place your own values above this your dead wrong. Thanks 2x6spds!

 

Going back to original topic, the article, way I see it is they declaring war against US.

It sounds like, 'We sent suicidals before. If you attack us, we will send more suicidals.' It's like criminals getting caught by reassuaring their crime.

Clearly, terrorists had declaired war against us. And I'm pretty sure that they think these Americans are casualties of war. If they don't want any more casualties of war, get out of the way! Show where perpetrator is. If the perpetrator is as brave as he says, show up and face it. Bravery is not dying for what you believe in. Bravery is those rescue workers who went to do their job knowing they want to go home by the end of the day.

And how dare they say Americans are not brave!

cheers to those who are proud Americans.

 

WinnyF,

Hear Hear,

Chroot,

Re. point 1, please don't send in the bombers the UAE just now. I have a family with three children here. As for American companies and interests in the UAE, well there are quite a few here earning quite nicely including CMS, Lucent, AT&T, General Dynamics?(who have recenlty sold $8billion worth of F-16s to the UAE),GM, among many others. BTW most of the oil produced here goes to Japan. As for the"Palestinans wiping the Israelis off the map", get real. Last I kcould tell it was the Israelis who had the attack helicopters and battle tanks (though to be fair, the suicide bombers are no better than those who took out the WTC!).

It turns out that the UAE passports may have been fake.

Also, I hear that one of the Saudi men (one of the Bukhari brothers) said to have been flying one of the planes had died last year in an accident in Jeddah. It seems pretty convenient for them to leave behind any incriminating evidence (such as what was found in the white mitsubishi - i.e. the flight manuals in Arabic, etc...) after years of planning and secrecy. What if the attack was called off?

This is leading to the conclusion that reasoned minds make the best decisions. The criminals need to be punished and they shall be.

 

Not to worry bro! Not on my watch. We did learn and haven't forgotten. I'm with the fellows that protect them as American citizen and law abiding humans. We may be from a different country and nationality but being treated charitably is in our intrest as fellow human beings. God help anyone I apprehend doing this. It's not going to happen again I promise you.