Secret Mormon Handshake
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,280
Likes: 1
From: knoxville, TN
Trit,
I am non-denominational Christian. I have known several mormons and I have to say that, on a whole, they are some of the nicest and most non-judgemental people I've known. You're making a big point about tithe? What has the Catholic Church done since its creation. Tithe supports the church. EVERY church collects a tithe in some way.
If you ever want to discuss the Bible, faith and other religions... talk to a mormon. Sure, their beliefs are not 100% in tune with mainstream religion, but then again neither were Martin Luther's.
Have you ever read The Book of Mormon? I think before passing judgement, you should have a more credible source than a website.
Brant, thanks for keeping the thread open.
I am non-denominational Christian. I have known several mormons and I have to say that, on a whole, they are some of the nicest and most non-judgemental people I've known. You're making a big point about tithe? What has the Catholic Church done since its creation. Tithe supports the church. EVERY church collects a tithe in some way.
If you ever want to discuss the Bible, faith and other religions... talk to a mormon. Sure, their beliefs are not 100% in tune with mainstream religion, but then again neither were Martin Luther's.
Have you ever read The Book of Mormon? I think before passing judgement, you should have a more credible source than a website.
Brant, thanks for keeping the thread open.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 11,729
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From: socal
I thought we would see the utah chapter here, good looking out MAtth25, It is honestly good to see your opinions here.... I lived out there for a while, nice people, good theory and great family values.
If you have studied other religions and come to the conclusion that this is the one you want, great, if not some would call it brainwashing. (as goes for any religion, not bashing mormons
) p.s. I am non-d christian, there are too many religions out there for just one to be right, there are aspects of many that we can learn from, but all are based on the same thing.
MAtt
If you have studied other religions and come to the conclusion that this is the one you want, great, if not some would call it brainwashing. (as goes for any religion, not bashing mormons
) p.s. I am non-d christian, there are too many religions out there for just one to be right, there are aspects of many that we can learn from, but all are based on the same thing.MAtt
Registered User
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,543
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From: Vegas baby!!
I typed this out all out on Notepad first, and hesitated at posting it, but ah well... here goes:
ten-- I'm going to reply to your posting piece by piece, not to pick apart your argument, but just to address the various points you made. also my reply is not just directed at you specifically, but to everyone, so I'm going to build some points off of my replies. once again-- not attacking you or your posting personally.
[QUOTE]I am non-denominational Christian.
ten-- I'm going to reply to your posting piece by piece, not to pick apart your argument, but just to address the various points you made. also my reply is not just directed at you specifically, but to everyone, so I'm going to build some points off of my replies. once again-- not attacking you or your posting personally.
[QUOTE]I am non-denominational Christian.
Former Moderator
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 52,827
Likes: 17
From: State of Confusion
Tritium,
Whether I agree or not is irrelevant...nice response.
It's posts like these from all sides that have kept this thread open. Agree or disagree...but civil discourse goes a long way.
Whether I agree or not is irrelevant...nice response.
It's posts like these from all sides that have kept this thread open. Agree or disagree...but civil discourse goes a long way.
Former Moderator
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 16,175
Likes: 0
From: Erock is da shizzle
I too have been watching this thread.. Being a mod, I thought best not to interject my own opinion.
ok, maybe just one quick on.. we have the ability to question.. that the only reason all this exists in the first place..
ok, maybe just one quick on.. we have the ability to question.. that the only reason all this exists in the first place..
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 9,280
Likes: 1
From: knoxville, TN
Trit,
I don't take you response personaly, at all. I believe that the only way one can truely have faith is test it, re-examine it and once again believe. I have to respond quickly, b/c I am up to my ears in work, but I feel compelled to reply.
Trit, you sound exactly like me in college. Please don't offense to it. I could mount a very good argument against religion and question the very existance of God. Like you, I was an agnostic. I am a surgeon, but before that a scientist. I need proof. Without proof, any conclusions can not be valid....right. WRONG.
I don't what area of science you are versed in, but my area is biology. What convinced me that there is a higher power is sheer precision is which the human body performs. Just for a cell to divide properly, numerous genes have to be transcibed. There are very detailed and intricate pathways, one relying upon another, with built in checks all to perform the simple task of cell divsion....and we still don't know it all. There are hundreds of genes and thousands of proteins that must interact correctly, else the system fails. Yet, were supposed to believe that this all occured by chance..... no way. The whole thing reeks of a higher order of thinking and planing. Over time, as I learned more and more, the truth (for me) became undeniable. The statsical probabilities for accurate cell replication, if left to chance are astronimicaly bad! Life would have ceased at the single cell level, let alone evolve. So, do I believe in evolution... yes. I happened to believe in both. This isn't hedging my bet. On the contrary, it accounts for all factors, bridging faith and science. Man evolved from lower species, but evolution was planned. Althought it has not been proven, there are camps in the evolutionary biology field that speak of genetic memory. That is, crude memories or instincts that pass from one generation to the next. A perfect example of this is found in the primate. Certain members of a group are Callers i.e. they stand watch and it is their job to alert to rest of the group when a predator approaches. According to classic Darwinism, one would think that behavior would be a non-viable trait. But, Callers reproduce and their offspring are Callers. There's no obvious genetic advantage, but the instinc to be a caller is hardwired. I believe that humans had to "evolve", to struggle, so that we could develop reasoning and understanding that could one day TRUELY comprehend a higher order entity i.e. God. Look at the progression of religion. As we evolve and become more enlightened, our religion changes and grows i.e. as we have the abilityu to comprehend a single God. At first, we were savages, and we had multiple gods to explain the smallest of events... we couldn't think of any other reason save "the gods willed it". And the gods, acted like humans. They were vain, petty and power hungry. However, as we developed science and that science led us to a greater understanding of the world around us, our gods became less and less. Finally, when were ready for it, God took the form of man. Why then and not earlier? B/c we were finally at a stage where we could BEGIN to understand the nature of God. Also, by taking human form, God was able to live as man, be tempted as man is, yet he remianed pure.... as example of how one SHOULD live. If this had been earlier, without man evolving, he couldn't have comprehended the totality of God. Do Christians make mistakes...you bet. We're human. Christ was/is God and his life was an example of what to strive for, but will never be attained (perfection).
I agree that religion has strayed from God and has been used to manipulate the masses. That is just an ugly, but undeniable truth. However, one should not confuse the church with God. Faith is based upon a personal relationship with God and the belief that Christ died to absolve man of the sin... to give him a second chance.
You don't buy youyr way into heaven by tithing. The tithe is supposed to be a gift to support the works of the church. Salvation is not for sale.....
I don't take you response personaly, at all. I believe that the only way one can truely have faith is test it, re-examine it and once again believe. I have to respond quickly, b/c I am up to my ears in work, but I feel compelled to reply.
Trit, you sound exactly like me in college. Please don't offense to it. I could mount a very good argument against religion and question the very existance of God. Like you, I was an agnostic. I am a surgeon, but before that a scientist. I need proof. Without proof, any conclusions can not be valid....right. WRONG.
I don't what area of science you are versed in, but my area is biology. What convinced me that there is a higher power is sheer precision is which the human body performs. Just for a cell to divide properly, numerous genes have to be transcibed. There are very detailed and intricate pathways, one relying upon another, with built in checks all to perform the simple task of cell divsion....and we still don't know it all. There are hundreds of genes and thousands of proteins that must interact correctly, else the system fails. Yet, were supposed to believe that this all occured by chance..... no way. The whole thing reeks of a higher order of thinking and planing. Over time, as I learned more and more, the truth (for me) became undeniable. The statsical probabilities for accurate cell replication, if left to chance are astronimicaly bad! Life would have ceased at the single cell level, let alone evolve. So, do I believe in evolution... yes. I happened to believe in both. This isn't hedging my bet. On the contrary, it accounts for all factors, bridging faith and science. Man evolved from lower species, but evolution was planned. Althought it has not been proven, there are camps in the evolutionary biology field that speak of genetic memory. That is, crude memories or instincts that pass from one generation to the next. A perfect example of this is found in the primate. Certain members of a group are Callers i.e. they stand watch and it is their job to alert to rest of the group when a predator approaches. According to classic Darwinism, one would think that behavior would be a non-viable trait. But, Callers reproduce and their offspring are Callers. There's no obvious genetic advantage, but the instinc to be a caller is hardwired. I believe that humans had to "evolve", to struggle, so that we could develop reasoning and understanding that could one day TRUELY comprehend a higher order entity i.e. God. Look at the progression of religion. As we evolve and become more enlightened, our religion changes and grows i.e. as we have the abilityu to comprehend a single God. At first, we were savages, and we had multiple gods to explain the smallest of events... we couldn't think of any other reason save "the gods willed it". And the gods, acted like humans. They were vain, petty and power hungry. However, as we developed science and that science led us to a greater understanding of the world around us, our gods became less and less. Finally, when were ready for it, God took the form of man. Why then and not earlier? B/c we were finally at a stage where we could BEGIN to understand the nature of God. Also, by taking human form, God was able to live as man, be tempted as man is, yet he remianed pure.... as example of how one SHOULD live. If this had been earlier, without man evolving, he couldn't have comprehended the totality of God. Do Christians make mistakes...you bet. We're human. Christ was/is God and his life was an example of what to strive for, but will never be attained (perfection).
I agree that religion has strayed from God and has been used to manipulate the masses. That is just an ugly, but undeniable truth. However, one should not confuse the church with God. Faith is based upon a personal relationship with God and the belief that Christ died to absolve man of the sin... to give him a second chance.
You don't buy youyr way into heaven by tithing. The tithe is supposed to be a gift to support the works of the church. Salvation is not for sale.....
Registered User
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,543
Likes: 0
From: Vegas baby!!
ten-- thanks for your reply despite how busy you are. once again, this reply is not just directed at you, because I will be reiterating (read: hammering home) some points that I'm sure you already understand, but I want to make clear for those who might be skimming through this thread.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tenblade2001
Trit,
once again, this reply is not just directed at you, because I will be reiterating (read: hammering home) some points that I'm sure you already understand, but I want to make clear for those who might be skimming through this thread.[QUOTE]Originally posted by tenblade2001
Trit,