Let's drop the McCain-isms and the patronizing "my friend." I'm no more your friend than I am Senator McCain's. I don't intend that antagonistically; I don't agree with you, but I respect your opinion. I've enjoyed shooting guns recreationally in the past, and I even have pictures of myself shooting pistols with Bob Barr.

The VA Tech situation was a tragedy, but it is clearly the exception and not the rule. It is folly to legislate general rules in response to exceptional circumstances. The proper way to use policy to prevent that kind of horror is to prevent people who have been receiving mental health care for depression and violent urges from obtaining firearms.

It's possible that if someone were to have had a weapon in one of those classrooms, some lives may have been saved.

I have no doubt that you and others could be, as you say, responsible, trained gun owners who would only use their weapons as a last resort when faced with a threat to life. But I suspect that encouraging people to confront armed criminals with their own weapons will cause more deaths in situations which otherwise would have ended far short of bodily harm, to either party.

If anything, my worry is that if a state allows concealed carry, the criminal will assume that his victim is armed and act accordingly - ie, he'll be much more trigger-happy than if he assumes that he possesses superior firepower over his presumed-unarmed victims.

 

Quick2K:
"The VA Tech situation was a tragedy, but it is clearly the exception and not the rule. It is folly to legislate general rules in response to exceptional circumstances. The proper way to use policy to prevent that kind of horror is to prevent people who have been receiving mental health care for depression and violent urges from obtaining firearms." --I believe that legislating general rules in response to exceptional circumstances would not necessarily be folly. A good example would be the following: I would consider terrorist plots to hijack planes and crash them into national landmarks and kill innocent civilians like the events of 9/11 to be exceptional circumstances. Based on your argument, since events such as 9/11 haven't happened before and haven't happened since, we really shouldn't do that much about legislating policies to prevent it from happening again in the future. Let's just throw a band aid on it and hope it doesn't happen again in the future. I think that most people would see the holes in that argument. The prudent approach would be to mount a massive overhaul of the system that failed us so that our current system doesn't fail us again. Sure, you can make the argument that 33 people killed at Virginia Tech doesn't compare to the 3000+ killed on 9/11 but I guarantee that the family members of those 33 dead students at Virginia Tech are just as traumatized by that event as the family members of the 3000+ who lost their lives on 9/11. My point is that it is absolutely essential that we learn from the failings of the policies that have allowed these tragedies to occur and make the appropriate changes to safeguard our citizens from those kinds of horrors again in the future. Your idea of enhancing policy to prevent people who have been receiving mental health care for depression and violent urges from obtaining firearms is a good one and it is even better augmented by a proper CCW policy in case someone happens to slip through the cracks again somehow and starts another killing rampage through yet another school in this great country.

"If anything, my worry is that if a state allows concealed carry, the criminal will assume that his victim is armed and act accordingly - ie, he'll be much more trigger-happy than if he assumes that he possesses superior firepower over his presumed-unarmed victims." --This is yet another matter of opinion. I respect your opinion but I do also disagree with it. Most sane criminals are not looking to get into gun fights with cops or anyone else. Like most people, they want to live to see another day. Possessing superior firepower doesn't mean that you are invincible to taking fire yourself. You might be shooting at me and even kill me with an AK-47 but if I manage to get off one accurate shot with my .45 before I die, you are not going to get away. Bleeding and wounded criminals don't generally want to get arrested after they stop by the local hospital to get patched up for a GSW to the leg/arm/chest/abdomen. Most criminals won't take that risk and that's simply my point of promoting CCWs in CA. Criminals will think twice. And if they think twice, that second thought might be enough to convince them that its a bad idea. Crime won't disappear. It never will. But living in a CCW friendly state will go a long way in convincing criminals that doing business in that state can be a very bad idea.

 

Quick, I understand where you're coming from and I happened to be working in both FL. and TX. when the CC laws went into effect. I was really worried about gunfights and a return to the old west. I was somewhat aware that violent crime (murder) in FL seemed to become less but in TX. there was no question that that the state became more safe. I had to rethink my opinion and I am now 100% in favor of CC laws. I don't believe everyone should be allowed to carry but with background checks and training i think it can be a very good thing.

Take a look at this PDF. I don't think anything other than first hand experience will change your mind but it's worth looking at just the same.

Concealed Carry info.

 

*flame suit on

i think guns are evil. i'd rather not have someone with a concealed weapon pull up and shoot me.

 

Oh great, now gangs throughout CA can carry weapons and NOT go to jail for it.

Way to go Kalifornia!

Warren

 

Amen, brother. Thank you for the valuable information and your input.

 

Guns are simply tools. They are no more evil than the a knife and fork that you can eat your steak with and both of those common, everyday items can also be creatively used to kill someone with nothing more than evil intent.

As far as you rather not having someone pull up with a concealed weapon and shooting you, if that were to happen, it would be the criminals who have no respect for the law who would perpetrate that crime, most likely when the cops aren't around to stop it. But if there happened to be a trained, law-abiding citizen around who happened to be carrying under a CCW, he might actually be able to intervene and save your life.

CCW gun owners are responsible, law-abiding citizens with very, very few exceptions. They are the good guys. Don't confuse them with the gang-banging homies who do drive-bys. Those guys will always be around and they'll always be carrying guns WITHOUT a CCW. CCW laws level the playing field, so that its not just the bad guys on the streets with the guns, the trained, responsible, law-abiding, good guys will have them as well. And that trained, responsible, law-abiding, good guy might just be able to step in one day and save YOUR life.

 

i think you are misinformed. CC would be for those with registered weapons and permits. you cant buy a gun legally if u have criminal record.

the situation becomes, when gang members roll up on you with their illegally obtained weapons which are carried and concealed illegally, the good citizen will have a chance at reaching for their legally obtained gun and fighting back in order to save puppies, children, free medical care, support the troops, anti-terrorism, patriotic, environmentally friendly, economic growth etc

 

In a perfect world....we wouldnt need guns. However, its far from perfect


I dont see how some people can think "lets just get rid of them" and our problems will go away. Thats hypothetical, because we CANNOT get rid of them, so there is no way to test that theory.

Even an overall gun ban would just keep honest people honest. The crazy guy that wants your wallet/car/wife/kid/puppy will still want it just as bad if he only has a knife, stick, or his fists....

I really dont think a lot of people understand CCW, like dragon and trainwreck hinted at. CCW are typically the good guys. The guys who carry documented licences and are fingerprinted and have formal instruction to carry a registered weapon, and are responsible if/when they use it. How is that bad?


+1 for CCW

 

BD, good luck getting this well-needed legislation passed.

VA Tech...

Campus Security (you know, the "sworn to protect and defend" guys) for VA Tech's gun-free zone took up a defensive posture outside a classroom building where an armed lunatic killed at leisure. Only when the shooting stopped did those guys bother themselves to go in the building and "investigate." If I was a Hokie parent, I'd be plenty pissed off.

Would one man or woman carrying a concealed weapon in that building saved the day? Who knows? Maybe, or maybe not. Doesn't really matter now, as those poor people never got the chance.

Bottom line is this - no matter who you are or where you are, the only person capable of protecting YOU is YOU.

Don't believe me? Ask a cop how often he patrols your street, or what his response time is when something awful happens. Also, ask him if he's supposed to protect anyone or just enforce the laws...the answers may surprise you.

You have a choice. Learn how to defend yourself, or don't. Depend on yourself, or rely on the "goodness" of humanity to carry you through life.