Surgeries performed on babies WITHOUT anesthesia?!
Originally Posted by MikeyCB,Feb 11 2008, 10:06 PM
It is an interesting query...do newborn babies have the capacity to be affected by pain? Do they even know what pain really is or are they simply reacting to a new sensation?
I guess nerves carry sense pain and send signals to the brain but when I was 8 I got a seriously nasty cut on my leg that required a ton of stitches. I slid while playing soccer, cut my leg on a piece of metal in the ground, then kept on playing till a kid pointed at my leg and looked sick. I looked down and started bawling my eyes out when I looked at it.
I think we are conditioned to know that the feeling of pain actually means hurt and we react accordingly.
I guess nerves carry sense pain and send signals to the brain but when I was 8 I got a seriously nasty cut on my leg that required a ton of stitches. I slid while playing soccer, cut my leg on a piece of metal in the ground, then kept on playing till a kid pointed at my leg and looked sick. I looked down and started bawling my eyes out when I looked at it.
I think we are conditioned to know that the feeling of pain actually means hurt and we react accordingly.
You are not conditioned to perceive pain. Unless you have some rare nervous system disorder, or are paralyzed, you feel pain intrinsically.
Responses to pain may be conditioned, but the perception itself is indeed inherent.
Originally Posted by ksxxsk,Feb 12 2008, 11:14 PM
Are you mentally retarded? It's nothing like stepping on an ant. How can you even compare a newborn infant to an ant?
Originally Posted by s2000raj,Feb 13 2008, 12:24 PM
absolutely. Pain is a basic animal instinct to warn the brain of a problem with the body. Now they dont remember the pain, which does have merit to a certain endpoint. I remember removing broviacs from tiny preemies. It's relatively painless, as adults have told me, but at times it stings because tissue grows into the cuff. Sometimes the preemies would sqirm and fight. I hated doing that.
some studies discuss a windup phenomenon from noxius stimuli which is real, but I dont know if it affects long term.
Some people advocate intubating infants without drugs to prevent vagal stimuli or aspiration from drugs, seems barbaric, but you have to weigh risks vs benefits of any procedure.
Ive had people mad because I cancelled their elective operation. They dont seem to understand that if they die or are maimed that their brow lift won't matter, like the mother of Kanye West.
some studies discuss a windup phenomenon from noxius stimuli which is real, but I dont know if it affects long term.
Some people advocate intubating infants without drugs to prevent vagal stimuli or aspiration from drugs, seems barbaric, but you have to weigh risks vs benefits of any procedure.
Ive had people mad because I cancelled their elective operation. They dont seem to understand that if they die or are maimed that their brow lift won't matter, like the mother of Kanye West.
Originally Posted by ksxxsk,Feb 12 2008, 09:18 PM
Dude, really? Nociception (perception of pain) is one of the oldest elements of the nervous system evolutionarily, and YES newborn infants DO feel pain--they HAVE the capacity for nociception.
You are not conditioned to perceive pain. Unless you have some rare nervous system disorder, or are paralyzed, you feel pain intrinsically.
Responses to pain may be conditioned, but the perception itself is indeed inherent.
You are not conditioned to perceive pain. Unless you have some rare nervous system disorder, or are paralyzed, you feel pain intrinsically.
Responses to pain may be conditioned, but the perception itself is indeed inherent.
But that story was true, I have a big dirty scar on my right leg. There have been other times when I haven't felt the pain with significant injury until I noticed for another reason that something was wrong, ie blood pouring out somewhere.
Will they remember the pain later?
If you rip the leg off an ant it runs around in circles but soon forgets and walks a straight line.
Also, I have never heard of phantom limb symptoms from infancy injuries.
The difference between ant pain and human PAIN is cognition and then recollection which can induce traumatization.
Without cognition and recollection, it's simply reactive instinct.
If you rip the leg off an ant it runs around in circles but soon forgets and walks a straight line.
Also, I have never heard of phantom limb symptoms from infancy injuries.
The difference between ant pain and human PAIN is cognition and then recollection which can induce traumatization.
Without cognition and recollection, it's simply reactive instinct.
Originally Posted by Ruprecht,Feb 13 2008, 10:26 PM
Will they remember the pain later?
If you rip the leg off an ant it runs around in circles but soon forgets and walks a straight line.
Also, I have never heard of phantom limb symptoms from infancy injuries.
The difference between ant pain and human PAIN is cognition and then recollection which can induce traumatization.
Without cognition and recollection, it's simply reactive instinct.
If you rip the leg off an ant it runs around in circles but soon forgets and walks a straight line.
Also, I have never heard of phantom limb symptoms from infancy injuries.
The difference between ant pain and human PAIN is cognition and then recollection which can induce traumatization.
Without cognition and recollection, it's simply reactive instinct.
However, the brain is highly plastic and just because we haven't coded those memories in our long-term memory does not mean that we are not affected by those stimuli.
Inducing such high levels of stress, as indicated in the article, can produce acute problems that may or may not have lasting effects depending on the severity of the symptoms.
You can affect a person for the rest of their lives in ways you may never even think of. Who knows what kind of collateral effects that early damage can have.
I definitely think it's a liability to use anesthesia on infants. They probably thought it would be safer for them to not use it than risk complications (e.g. death) and a lawsuit. Afterall, if they didn't use it, who would tell? The baby? Definitely not. No recollection. The nurses or doctors? Probably not since they are the practitioners.
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