People's lack of historic knowledge is frightening. You do know that if Hitler didn't start his invasion of Europe, Uncle Joe Stalin was going to and was ready. Historical papers and released communist data after the fall of the Berlin Wall revealed this. Hitler just beat the ol' Ruskies to the punch.

So, if it wasn't the Nazis, it would have been the Russians as the main enemy of Europe. Instead, Russia, had to become reluctant partners in the defeat of Germany due to Hitler's pigheaded invasion of Russia. However, it was quickly proved once there was Nazi defeat, the real intentions of the Soviets with their land grab and the Yalta meeting with Roosevelt and Churchill.

Make no mistake ladies....World War is on the horizon. We will be doing battle against possibly the greatest adversary ever assembled in the history of mankind....the tag team of Russia and China. Research the Shanghai Cooperation Organization at your leisure if you do not believe me.

 

I'm not sure how the Shanghai Cooperation Organization is going to lead to World War any more than the existence of the Warsaw Pact did. Frankly, mutually assured destruction was and continues to be a viable deterrent to a World War breaking out among these countries and NATO powers. I'm less sanguine about prospects of war with countries whose citizens may think that they go straight to heaven if they are killed in a war with heathen countries, so the prospects of smaller-scale nuclear wars between Israel and Iran or between a potentially radically-Islamized Pakistan and India is far more likely.

 

Actually they do. The problem isn't that they do not teach us the proper history, it is that the majority of my fellow citizens were too busy asleep in class. Or just plain stupid.

You're highly accurate on your dates and account of events, I must say I am impressed. Are you studying the material now or just something you do for fun? Me and my friends studied WWII in and out, it was probably the most exciting thing we ever did for any history class. Huge to that!

 

I'm just very interested in history, and read a lot of history books for relaxation. I travel a lot, and when I do, I make a point of immersing myself in books on the history of that part of the world in preparation or as I travel. I had a wonderful experience a few years back reading Catherwood and Steven's Incidents of Adventure in the Yucatan while I was retracing their travels by second-class bus. So cool to be travelling while reading about someone's experiences going the same route in the 1840s.

Haven't made a particular study of WWII, and am woefully deficient in the history of vast areas of the planet, but it is something that I am curious about. Glad that there are some others in this thread that are as well. I was beginning to lose hope! :-)

 

Well, I am glad this thread stayed on the current conflict instead of Zeiss just telling us what went on in New Guniea. Its not that most americans are ignorant of other countries, its that most don't seem to care. Call it US ego. The US did not win WWII all by itself and we did not puss out either, can we leave it at that?


But back to Georgia v Russia. I hate it when people think "Its not our problem" and its just that simple. I don't think we should get involved militarily, but turning a blind eye to aggression is what got Hitler off to the races.

Russia is pissed some of its former puppets have decided to go the democratic route and cozied up to western powers. Its feelings are hurt. That coupled with the fact that Russia is a giant military power armed to the teeth and a dictatorship run by Putin and some old KGB holdovers should not give too many people warm fuzzies.

Russia has more bilionaires now that any country in the world I read. They all were people plugged into the communist party who looted public assets when the Soviet Union crumbled. Putin supposedly has over a billion stashed away and he has never run a business, where did it come from? If you are not following where I am going with this, Russia is run by a small few who lust for money and power and are used to just doing what they want. If it means slaughtering Georgian civilains, so be it. Gerogia has oil, and Putin wants to pad his bank account and add to his power. Seems a little disconcerting to me.

Nobody can be the world's policeman, but Putin has an "ends justify the means" mentality. So did Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. How many did they kill?

 

Thanks for bringing us back on track. I guess the problem with the situation in Georgia is who gets self-determination. I can't help but notice that Russia is hitting back against Georgia, which attacked South Ossetia -- a province that wants self-determination. One is tempted to look at what NATO did in Kosovo, when Serbian forces were fighting there. If one believes in democratic self-determination, shouldn't the people of South Ossetia and Abkazia be able to be free from Georgian rule, as Kosovo is from Serbia?

On the other hand, it is hard to believe in Russia's motives when they were bombing the shit out of Chechnia for wanting the same self-determination that South Ossetia and Abkazia are seeking.

This isn't a simple good vs evil. Georgia had a particularly corrupt and repugnant regime when South Ossetia and Abkazia first separated, and although the current regime is somewhat better, it is not particularly friendly to the aspirations of minorities within its rule. And Russia is clearly not acting selflessly in this matter, trying to curb NATO expansion across its southern border, and to keep its position and influence in supplying Europe with oil and natural gas.

Would the situation be improved if the U.S. took stronger action? I doubt it. I think that the Western powers are doing about all that can be done at this point. Whether assurances were given Georgia by the U.S. before it precipitated this disastrous action, I don't know. I suspect that Georgia made a huge miscalculation.

 

[QUOTE=zeiss,Aug 14 2008, 10:34 AM]

Would the situation be improved if the U.S. took stronger action?

 

I hope that you do buy tar sands oil from Canada, as my oil stocks have fallen in the past month! I'm praying for more instability in oil producing countries! :-)

I'm not so sure that I agree with T. Boone Pickens that American gets its oil from its enemies. About half of it's supply is met by domestic production, and Canada and Mexico are the largest foreign providers beyond that. Supply from those countries is assured by NAFTA -- in fact a lot of people here were pissed off that if Canadian oil imports are threatened, we still are bound by treaty to keep up exports to the U.S. even if it means that the Eastern part of Canada freezes in the dark. Even then, we aren't the revolution types, so you won't have crazed, toque-wearing Canadian fanatics blowing the pipelines from Alberta.

Think of other large providers of oil internationally -- Norway, the UK, even Brazil is emerging as an oil superpower. Almost none of America's oil comes from the Middle East, Russia or Africa. Europe, Japan, India and China are far more vulnerable to problems in unstable parts of the world.

 

[QUOTE=vader1,Aug 14 2008, 12:26 PM] But back to Georgia v Russia.

 

I would like to add more to this discussion on Russia. I have been studying them for years now, so take my advice as you wish. You can completely dismiss what I say, but do so at your own peril.

Russia (henceforth referred to as the USSR) has had Western domination as its goal since pre-WWII. Back in the early 1960s, the upper echelon of the Kremlin, KGB and communist party members plotted out long range goals for the USSR, the collapse of the West and its economies, and the destruction of the United States. Everything the USSR does is carefully planned and gamed. Everything. This attack on Georgia is no different. In fact, I can say with great confidence, Saakashvili (ties to the upper echelon of the communist party with former prez of Georgia, Eduard Shevardnadze) is a Putin stooge and are using this conflict to sucker the US into something greater.

Let us go back to 1991...the fall of the Berlin Wall and the so-called collapse of communism. While I do greatly admire Ronald Reagan, communism was never defeated, it mearly just changed its stripes. A flag change here, a false "color" revolution there, etc, all were meant for outward consumption of the West to show that the USSR was defeated and "changed." It was lapped up by 99.99 of the West.

If you research all of the leaders of the former Communist bloc, you will find they were all former KGB, or upper echelon Communist Party members with still strong ties to the Kremlin itself. That is no mistake my friends. Once a commie, always a commie. Once a KGB...always a KGB. At the same time, we opened our doors to the East and are now penetrated at the highest levels of government and alphabet soup agencies (CIA, FBI, NSA, etc.) During the past 17 years the USSR has enjoyed overwhelming success in gaining access to our military and technological secrets. They had success before, but never like this.

They also gained access to sorely needed capital. Western bankers and capitalists eager for a buck, were all too easy to comply with the wishes of the Kremlin. As an example...witness the USSR's miraculous turn around in Oil and Natural gas production. With western capital and technology, the Soviet Union is now the LEADING proprietor of oil and natural gas in the world, even ahead of Saudi Arabia. Ask Shell Oil how they feel about it. Those suckers poured billions into technology and drilling and now have nothing to show for it as Putin and his gang of thieves took it over and seized their assets. That wasn't the first time it was done to a western company and it certainly will not be the last.

How can that happen you ask? Well, "it ain't Kansas" over there. If you look at the richest Russians in the world you will note that mostly, if not all made their billions because they were/are friends of the ex-elite communist party or were former KGB men. You don't believe me? Do you know what Putin is worth thanks to placing all his friends at the helms of such oligopolies as OAO Gazprom, Norilsk, Alfa, Sibneft, etc just to name a few off the top of my head? Putin is reportedly worth anywhere from $40 to 60 billion dollars. Yep, you read that right. How else does one afford closet fulls of London bespoke suits on a government salary?

Do you know what happens if you go against Putin, too? Ask Mikhail Khordokovsky. He went from a billionaire jetsetter to eating bread and water in a Soviet jail cell, because he forgot where he came from. He dared bite the hand that fed him by trying a power grab and lost.

Besides that, look at what happened to all those poor journalists that came to appreciate the little crumbs of freedom the downing of the Wall brought. They thought they were safe in critizing Putin and the Kremlin. They were not. During the past 5 years, Kremlin dissidents have been brutally murdered. Hilary Clinton wishes she had that power. Putin does, however.

Still don't believe the USSR is hellbent on killing us off (with the help of the Chi-comms)? Try and get your hands on a little book called "New Lies for Old" by Anatoliy Golytsin. I must warn you however, if you read this book do not blame me for your lack of sleep and paranoia, and your expenses on MREs, ammo, and firearms.

Still need further proof? Read "Red Cocaine" by Joseph Douglass. You will see that the Russian Mafia has major control of the drug trade into the US. You will also learn that the Russian mafia is also an arm of the Kremlin itself. You see...there are more ways to destroy your enemy than with just bombs....you can do it with drugs. This is part of their long range strategy for the destruction of the west. Note the time recreation drug use took off in the US? The late 60s. Is that a coincidence? Nope, not if you know how the Soviets had already planned it in the early 60s.

Now...I won't even go into how communist sympathizers with he help of the Kremlin itself gained power in trade unions and education. All you have to do is look at the havoc it wreaked on American manufacturing. All part of the plan. Look at how weak our educational system has gotten....its not a coincidence my friends if you know.

If that still has not clinched it for you...I want you to do a little research. Google or Yahoo! Ayman al-Zawarhari and the FSB (the new name for the KGB.) This is the man most responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Draw your own conclusions after your research. I will tell you should a nuke go off in the US, it will have been done so with the islamo-fascists as a proxy for the USSR. This is for plausible deniability, but do not be fooled...the fingerprints would all be clearly Russian.

If you are intrigued now, I also recommend going here:

www.jrnyquist.com (visit the forums there as well under Links)
www.axisglobe.com (news on the Axis Powers)
www.jamestown.org

Also do research on the SCO and China. These are the people...as sure as I am typing this, that we will be fighting along with the USSR within a 4-5 year window if not sooner. Look up (google or yahoo search) "Assassin's Mace." Note also how many times China conducts cyber attacks on the US and report back.

And here is a bonus for you all...how would the USSR responed to a cyber-attack on their defense systems (something that happens to the pentagon every second)?


Also, if you have anything constructive to say please do. Do not say this is all rubbish and whacky if you have not done your research, because if you do not do the research, you are only fooling yourself and add nothing to the conversation. In other words, you are an ignorant fool. Lenin had a name for you...."useful idiot."