DavidNJ

I think we are sort of agreeing here. As long as the shock has a proven track record, made of quality components, by a quality company it can be configured to work for a given application. The difference seems to be I consider the underlining design type as one of many issues when deciding what to purchase. For you it seems clear you have no interest in twin tubes regardless of the other factors.

So back to the original issue, while the FA500 seems interesting, I think I will go with the more known item. Sometimes the used market can give you a good idea of the perceived value. From what I can tell used quality shocks/coilovers go for about 65-75% of the new price. Used Ohlins DFV and KW V3s get snatched up right away for anything around $1500-1800. Koni yellows, while cheaper are the same. The usually go for $350-$450 used. I am not sure how the used FAs are doing, but I bet they get less attention. Just another thought...
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We are agreeing that "As long as the shock has a proven track record, made of quality components, by a quality company it can be configured to work for a given application", but not that it would be best for that application. Without tight competition, no one would ever know. We disagree over this "it seems clear you have no interest in twin tubes regardless of the other factors"; there are no other relevant factors.


For most people the FA brand is indistinguishable form an assortment of Japanese non-monotube and monotube shocks. Then they have those bright green (green???) colors that does anything but create the image of a prestigious shock. . Other than the 500 and to a lesser extent the 510 (already $1800 new) their shocks are expensive. Just the 500 fits the $1200 price point. Note that FA started to create another Müller brand which is copper colored with blue springs. They look to be similar to the FA500 with upgrades springs and targeting different cars (e.g. Lexus vs Toyota).



Ohlins, KW, and Koni are well known brand names. The Koni's have been around since the beginning of S2000s and for a while were probably the only reasonable cost way to stiffer springs.

KW's polished bodies and overall look is very impressive. They have been coil overs at price points that generally haven't had many monotube alternatives. Their V1 is around $1700, the V3 around $2600. Very few monotubes with springs there...although the Ohlins DFW is. KW looks like a monotube and hides that they are a twin tube pretty well. I think the words "twin tube" appear twice on their entire website. Most buyers probably don't know, wouldn't understand if they did, and will never know the difference.

Ohlins are monotubes and a DFV for $1800 would be a good deal. It is only a 25% discount from new though. At $2425 complete with 10/8kg/mm springs and tophats these are probably the best value for most people. I'd be inclined to stiffen further with big bars rather than big springs unless also doing aero mods (I'm a Karcepts fan for anti-roll bars).

Apex1.0

Yep you are right. We disagree here. Four other major factors that are independent of the twin tube vs. mono tube consideration are:

The actual valving or tune. This is critical, a poorly tuned/valved monotube has no chance against a properly valved twin tube of equal quality.

The execution of the underlining design. Quality components and quality processes. Would you seriously take a cheapo ebay mono tube over a Koni or KW, just because its a monotube?

The manufacturer or brand name. This makes a difference, because unless you are doing serious testing, you are ultimately trusting the manufacturer to get the tune right for a given application and to provide a quality product. Perception of the above two factors goes right to the brand name.

The cost or value to the end user. Probably the single most important factor for most enthusiasts. What is the cost of entry and what value does that shock deliver. Again, I have said my first choice is DFV, but it is twice the cost of the Koni setup. If I go Koni, I am gambling the actual and precived benefits of going with the Ohlins do no out weigh the cost difference. Also consider the fact that every suspension setup is a learning experience for the user. I can figure out what I like and don't like of a given setup and then adapt. there is a good chance the Koni will do everything I want it to. If not, I can sell it for 65-75% of the price I paid and take the knowledge I have gained and move forward. Maybe I will go with the DFV, maybe KW at that point... hell I may go back to stock.

Again, I just don't to subscribe to the "mono tubes are always better than twin tubes" theory.

S2K Al

"Custom" building needs to be defined. Not for the industry, but by whoever is offering the customizing service. I've seen it mentioned here several times and in other threads that one of the key selling points of Fortune Auto's coilovers is the customization.

Does anyone know exactly what goes into that specific customization process? What questions are asked or what information does the user have to provide in order to get customization, and to what degree can the shocks be customized?

Let me put a finer point on this - is this customization a sales gimmick? Or can the S2000 driver who can drive Sebring reverse and blindfolded on their current setup go to FA and actually come away with a truly customized setup that is better?

DavidNJ

Depends how bad their setup is. FA stiffens/softens the shim stack relative to the springs. Since they sell with springs they generally know what spring is being used. They don't do significant custom tuning for different applications (e.g. racing, time trials, autocross). But remember the 500 and 510 that are of interest here are their low cost models. Add reservoirs and they are charging JRZ and Penske prices.

The Koni's discussed here are also revalved to be appropriate for the springs used. People using Bilstein PSS, AST, and Ohlins DFV also have them revalved when using stiffer springs. In street class autocross the springs are softer than those shocks come with from the factory.

If you browse the threads here you will find examples of bad revalving. There is one case where Penskes were awful until revalved again by someone else.

Bilstein and Penske sell rebuildable shocks for oval track. They specify and/or sell shim stacks to get different stiffness configurations. I couldn't find the oval track stacks on one page, but this is for off-road shocks. As you can see, it is cookie cutter...but only with the machined aluminum bodies, not the stamped steel bodies of the PSS.



These are some pages from the oval track valving manual; again you can see each setting is just a different shim stack: http://www.bilsteinus.com/fileadmin/...ual_41to50.pdf


You might find this shim tutorial interesting: http://www.shimresta...tack-config.htm

User 121020

Internals of the PSS are the same as any 46mm Bilstein, aluminum or steel bodies. The PSS dampers use an 8mm piston bore and one of the digressive bilstein pistons (can't remember which one). There is a bilstein manual with all sorts of shim stack arrangements for both digressive and linear valving.

DavidNJ

At the Bilstein shock class, when they used to have it a long time ago, they said that settings where consistent with the machined body but varied with the stamped bodies. It isn't me...its them.

The link in my last post shows their shim stacks for their different settings. Bilstein doesn't have a lot of pistons, just linear, digressive, and digressive COB. They are described on page 6: http://www.bilsteinus.com/uploads/tx...ts_2010_15.pdf.

Apex1.0

My understanding is that fa builds them to order. That means the shocks you order only exist as components at fa at the time you make the call. They may have some inventory of completed shocks of their base setup 9k/9k.

Back S2k

^ When I ordered from FA they asked me the weight of my car, the wheel/tire/tire model and what I was using the car for. Not that any of that made a difference because I was set on my the rates and valving I wanted. I can see how that information would be beneficial if the average joe was ordering a set. Took about 5 weeks total build time and shipping.

Apex1.0

The Konis I am referring to are out of the box yellows. Ground Control does not valve them typically. They will dyno them and match adjust them and adjust them for the spring rate. This is one of the benefits of the Koni, a large range of rebound adjustment with little crosstalk. The range of springs they have been known to work well with is stock to 550lbs, some say 600lbs.

DavidNJ

I'm curious, how did you specify the valving?

550-600 lb/in is pretty much the low end of an STR autocross or track day car. Way under a track day car with aero (spliter and wing). The Ohlins DFV which is generally sold as much as a street suspension as a track suspension comes with comes with 560/450 springs. I was thinking of TC Kline rather than Ground Control.