whooOOOooOOO, "Dark Knight, come join the Darkside." wow dude, your awesome! ing winnner! man... get a life!

 

whooOOOooOOO, "Dark Knight, come join the Darkside." wow dude, your awesome! ing winnner! man... get a life!

 

[/QUOTE]
You know I was going to just let this go, because neither one of you is worth my time but since I sitting here watching my daughter play Jak3 I have a few extra minutes, I figure I might as well waste a few more minute and respond to this complete hi-jacking of this thread...

ATF Kuk-
[QUOTE]well, this turned out to more than just a debate, its about fact from myth. there is a lot of myth floating around this audio forum. im just trying to help out with the myths around here. im sure GSteg is as well. we were not here to argue or find reason to piss people off.

 

me? i go to school for a living right now. i work part time at a company that supplies electricity to southern california (part of edison international), where I get exposed to 220,000v transmission line, 15,000 megawatts generators, fault indicators, fuse arresters, real deep cycle battery, etc....so a 12v car battery is nothing to me.
I haven't gotten a clear answer as to why the yellow is better:


-if people are able to run 5000w+ on a red top with no problem and problems with yellow tops, then why do people feel the need that a yellow top is the way to go over a red top on a car with stock alternator and a puny 500w amp?

-yellow top is better than conventional batteries, that's a given if you want more capacity. Now why is it a better candidate than a red top? that is where i'm getting at.

-websites are only posting 1-sided truth. the graph for example...if you're really thinking that you're getting x amp/hr all day long, then optima did a great job of fooling you. Kinda like how some people think they are getting peak torque at all revs. True that the peak is correct, but honda isn't going to run around and tell everyone that the f20c doesn't put out peak all the time.

-If yellow is better than a red top, then how does it benefit a car if it requires a higher voltage to recharge than a red top? If the alternator has to work more to recharge, how is it going to affect long term reliability of the battery? Hence why i said disregard what i said if you were to use a higher output alternator with the yellow top.

-websites provides some truth, but doesn't mean they are heavily biased. Even if other websites are saying so and so about optima, they are still biased because they are selling the products. You don't hear a salesman say "oh yea the s2k is great, but you have to rev it high to get peak torque." I have not seen an store ever show me a voltage vs ampere chart for an optima battery and how it will react with different load. All i see is "this battery will put out so and so!"


I am not claiming that i am an expert, but if you're going to use optima's own website as fact, then there is no valid debate because biased information will be thrown everywhere. All i have used so far is my prior knowledge of electricity and experience around batteries to defend myself.

No one is saying you're wrong... I AGREE THAT THE YELLOW TOP IS BETTER THAN CONVENTIONAL BATTERIES, but your facts that were listed on optima's site are just backup facts to compare CONVENTIONAL batteries vs YELLOW TOP....not red top vs. yellow top...this is the whole debate. some feel the yellow is better without realizing that there are potential problems and such. You are bringing it up as if i had said regular duralast battery is better than yellow tops.

 

Bottom line is....you are all wrong, red tops and yellow tops suck. I use a blue top, and it works great, because Joe from BatteryExperts said it was the right battery.

THis is an electronics forum. And retard knows that red tops are NOT made for cars with lots of electronics in it. Unlike others here, I did do a head to head comparison with a red top/ yellow top.

Last week, when it was cold in NYC, my stock battery was not cutting it, car would barely start, and if it did, it would chug at 50-100 rpm...barely turning over after staying parked overnight. I ordered a yellow top. Meanwhile, a friend of mine has a BRAND NEW red top that is going into his 240 that is still in the shop getting the motor put in. I Charged the red top overnight, and installed it. Starting the car, the car fires at 3-4 cranks. If I play my system without the motor on, the voltage will dip into the low 11s within 3-5 minutes.

I got my yellow top a few days ago, charged it overnight (same way as the red top) installed it, and guess what... MAJOR difference. Car fires at 0.5-1 crank. System stays at 12V for like 15 minutes before dipping to 11.8-11.9, and stays there for a while. Red tops are NOT MADE FOR CARS THAT ARE IN THIS FORUM.

Anyway, GSteg and ATF KuK......

You guys need to stop picking fights with people who are the ones that MAKE this forum. John helped me many times (DKnight), Phil helped me a TON of times (PJK3) and Jim helped me out a lot (PAs2kNUT). I myself have helped AT LEAST 25-30 people, and another 10-15 PERSONALLY (phone or house call)Recieved over 500PMs about audio/video.....and have actually helped this community. According to you....you are all knowitalls, but what did you do that gives you any credit??? WHy should I believe that you know ANYTHING about car audio, on top of that....why should I believe you know more than John or Phil (both are pretty much the only people I would listen to here).....They have something to show for their knowledge, and I KNOW they know their stuff....not blab what they read on a website. When you ADD something to this community, then you can earn some credit.

Whatever, Im done with this bullsh!t. im tired of arguing with people. The people who want help can choose from advice....people that have an s2000 and know it inside out, and people who play expert.

Im going to listen to my sh!tty audiobahns now.

 

i could care less about getting credits on here.

i just joined the forums not too long ago, how am i suppose to come in here with all the credibility in the world?

as for your comment about "And retard knows that red tops are NOT made for cars with lots of electronics in it.", i find it funny because 500w of amplifying power is nothing really. I should tell all the guys i know who are running 5000w+ that they are idiots because red tops are not made for cars with lots of electronics.

I could find many major flaws with your comparison. For one, there are too many variables. You are inducing other variables that could account for the difference.


S2000 must be special or something because red tops aren't made for them. They must be sucking up some special electricity that requires yellow top batteries.

No one is picking fights. picking fights would be coming out of nowhere and start throwing out false information. I have yet to see any of the information proved wrong. Yet no one has told me why it is a benefit to have a yellow top when it requires a higher voltage to recharge, if not, the alternator could potentially fail. If it doesn't have that petential, then it is not a real deep cycle battery.

You don't need to believe me more than anyone else here. I know probably only 1% of what there is to know about car audio. I did not claim myself to be any better than anyone on this forum. I'm just throwing out what I know about batteries and yet people are flaming me because of what? Because Optima didn't tell you what goes on behind the scene?

I do not blab on what i read on websites...I am not the one who quoted almost the whole page of a particular website and pass it on as my own research. I play around with electricity where I work. If I were to think of the opposite, The whole southern california transmission line would be out of power because it does not work that way.

You have been here for 1 year and 190 days, and i have been here for 28days. Am i suppose to just sit here and and wait another year or so before I can even "contribute"? or am i suppose to keep on feeding you questions so you can further help out the community?

I know everyone else here are good people and are willing to help. I am willing to help too, but I can't help if no one is going to accept the fact. I have accepted the fact that yellow tops are better than conventional batteries, but no one accepts the fact that there are disadvantages to having a yellow top.

I do not hate audiobahn. Their amps are nice and a bit underrated, i just have problems with all their subs (except the 2003 immortals).

Because of this, I know people are going to view me as the guy who is "going to pick fights" and that people should "stay away from GSteg." There goes my credibility on this forum, but it won't stop me from trying to disprove urban myths.

 

Ok GSTEG....some of that post wasnt directed to you. But you are very misinformed about car electricals.

First of all, to the retards that claim they are running 5000wrms in their cars (very prominent on the BMW and Mecedes boards) are full of sh!t. They have no clue what they are talking about. Fact of the matter is, no car (stock electricals) is capable of producing that kind of power. Period. No arguements, I dont want to hear debates about it.

So, you dont think 500wrms is enough to stress the elecricals???

Phil, John and I had a long talk about this last year, and we all pretty much agreed....so Ill run it down again.

The s2000 comes equipped with a Denso 110 amp alternator. Car manufacturers leave 35% (german cars) to 40% (japanese and american cars) for unused reserve power output. Based on these numbers you calculate that the s2000 has about 44 amps to spare.

So, if you had all 100% of these 44 amps serving the system, and the amp is 100% efficient, you would be able to draw out about 633.6 watts.

However, you dont have all 44 amps at your disposal, nor is your amp 100% efficient.

So, lets take a realistic look. (remember, you are almost never drawing continuous watts, so the 750wrms is not all the time)

Now, assuming you have class A/B amplifiers (class D are more efficient, but not many of us have them here)....So we have 500wrms right? Lets take 50% effiency, the average for a class A/B amp. So double the power due to inefficiency...so we get 1000watts. Now, we divide that number by the average alternator charge output, which is 13.85volts. 1000W/13.85V=72.2021 AMPS. (remember, we only have 44 to power ALL THE electricals that are NOT running during startup...headlights, fans, etc)

However, the 72.2021A number is if you were constantly drawing that kind of juice. In reality, the constant is about a third of that power. So, 72.2021/3= 24.06

So we have 24.06A that are being used to power a 500wrms system. (this number has been verified in my friend's RSX, since he has a soundstream powerplant, and it states the current draw in amps. THe amp he has is a 125x4 used to about 100% capacity and it is class D....the draw is anywhere from 23-26A)

So out of 44 free amps, you are eating 24. That leaves you with 20A until the juice is pulled from the battery without getting recharged.

Now take a look at some more numbers....

Headlights are 5A each when on.
Windows take about 3.5A when moving...
AC compressor takes about 6A and 10A on startup.

I cant find the thread where either modifry of MacGyver tested out the Amp draw of all the s2000 electronics.

So in conclusion, 500W is a big deal, and a yellow top does help. A red top is NOT marketed for audio use where heavy drain loads are required. I dont know what the whole point of your arguement was, because if you are saying that the red top is better than the yellow for audio, then I dont know what to tell you.

Also, you keep saying that the guys at Optima arent telling the whole truth about the yellowtop, but you praise the red top. Do you really think they are telling the truth on the red top then? Why would they lie about the yellow top? To sell the red top?

 

tell me something i don't know already. amps are terribly inefficient voltage amplifers. that's a fact.

my point was for starting battery, the red top does fine, yet people are saying i am wrong and that the yellow is suited better.


500w on hand is a lot, true, but like you said, people never really reach 500w continuously, hence why people are saying "my optima survive and i have X amount of watts in my car!" I have a 110A peak alternator in my car and I have ran my Directed 1100d without any problems. Am i suppose to say that "oh the duralast battery is good! get it because i have over 1100w in my car and it handles like a champ!" Remember, the guys who are running 5000w on their SPL cars are drawing CONTINUOUSLY. What makes you think that if the red tops work on their car, that it won't work quite as well in an s2000?

I've already pointed out that the s2k does not have all of its power from the alternator available for just audio. I made that point on page 1 i believe.

I do not believe i am misformed about audio. If Some of the most respected CAR AUDIO companies are agreeing with me, then perhaps why should I think otherwise?

I do not praise the red top. I am just pointing out why the yellow top can be at such a disadvantage. What optima said on their site IS the truth, just not the whole truth. They only give you pros about their battery, not CONs.


for the last time..why are you making it seem like i said the yellow top does not help at all? I have never said the red top was better for audio..i said the red top is better suited for starting! Look at all the post where i mentioned cranking amp and the importance of it as opposed to drain time! Zro260 lives in texas where he said he sometimes turn on the A/C because it gets hot. As a starting battery, you want a lot of cranking ampere to start the car because there are three things that kills a battery : too much heat, not enough heat, and vibration. A yellow top is more suited if temperature is not extreme. Being in texas, it is going to get hot under the hood of the car.

yet i know plenty of people who are having no problems with their red tops.. but hey, they must not have serious drain if they are trying to draw over 400 amperes from their battery.


btw, car electronics and the actual electronics in substations are no different. electricity works the same way as in a car. Dealing with 12v battery is nothing compared to dealing with say 12,000v on transformer.


btw, your friend's amp is overrated if it only draws about 26 Amps at "100% capacity". But that's a different issue.

 

Nice Dave

GSteg... do you have any idea how stupid you sound? Have you done all this research you keep quoting. I got my info from the manufacture and a seperate website. They manufacture says that the Yellow Top is made for a car with electronic mods... you can argue all you want, you didn't design it so you really have no proof yourself, plus you only you know about 1% of car audio...

You are clearly a kid that is still growing up, you asked me how I knew where a kid... because you act like one and because you talk like one. So basiclly I could tell roughly how old you are by the way you conduct yourself here.

You asked me to prove you wrong...I did already... do I need to quote myself. You haven't done anything to prove anything other than 'your' word, which is not worth anything at this point, to me anyway.

You yourself said you know about 1% about car audio... So why would anyone listen to you, or your advice. Honestly if you had just acted like an adult and used some tack, and had any kind of verifiable proof as to your beliefs maybe, and I stress maybe, someone here would beleave you.

For someone that only knows 1% about car audio, your taking a big step in trying to disprove urban myths that you only know 1% about the subject. You need to stop listening to your "friends" that think they know it all. Do you really expect me to believe that just because you work on high voltage lines/grid/ or whatever that you have any clue about the 1% you know about car audio.

Believe me I'm all for learning new things, ask around about me here a little, I'm no know it all, but I do know that our system was made by us and sounds awesome!

If you stay in this forum your right it will be a long time before people start to trust anything you say. (and that could because you've made yourself look like a jerk by the way you've acted or it could be because you only know 1% about car audio)

Anyway I'm done with this thread... since I've helped to ruin it.

 

do u honestly thing anyone knows over half of what there is to know about audio? There are many topics we can cover, yet its still maybe only 1%. Do you have any idea how many topics there are to know about car audio? No one knows more than 5% i would say because it is impossible. Everyone has their specialty. Do you think that car audio is just amp, speaker, headunit, battery, subwoofer, etc and you're done? We haven't even gotten to pathlength and sound dispersion yet. Even so that is still 1% of what there is in car audio.

you quoted from dcbattery.com...a site that SELL optima batteries. Give me a source from a third party. Well here is one for you:



this is from autosound 2000 where they do independent testing. So much for your chart on peak amp/hr. It doesn't stay peak all the time. Some batteries despite what they have for peak, can roll off faster than the other. Showing me peak does not translate into how it can potentially be used in the real world.


i didn't come up with the ohm law, but if i were to use it, would it be invalid because it didn't come up with it?

I don't think i sound stupid at all. Do you honestly think you are having much backup when you are posting information from the manufactor and a company that sells the battery? There is going to be biased in their review unless you have an independent source test out the battery with scientific facts that describes the battery and how it works.

I am proud to be a kid that has knowledge how how electricity works. The way i present myself to the forum has no influence on my knowledge. If a kid were to say water is h20 and an adult with superior language were to say water is OH, is the kid wrong? We are not dealing with english on this forum, so you can take that out of your argument because it holds no value when you talk about electronics.


I dont' have to listen to my friends. actually, my friends are people who work in car audio companies. I have a friend who build speakers for a living so audio is not quite so new to me.

Having to work on high voltage sources IS something that is credible. If i did not know how electricity works, say goodbye to the whole southern california. Physics is essentials to where I work. We learn how electrons work like we know ABCs. Can't get around that.

Please quote me where you have proved me wrong. Prove to me that deep cycle batteries does not require higher voltage to recharge properly without any decrease in efficiency. If you in any way say that they do not require higher voltage to recharge, then the yellow top is not a true deep cycle battery and that it is just a marketing ploy by Optima. you got fooled into thinking they are 100% correct. You cannot have both ways. Marketing vs. engineering, one of them is going to take over the other. Seems like Optima's marketing department did a great job doing their work.


1% of audio is all i know about. you must know 50%. In that case, congratulation. You are king of audio because no one can touch that level except you.

mod, you can close this thread if you want. it has gone out of original intent. Works fine for me that people are only willing to listen to 1-sided truths. May the lack physics guide them.