dash + rear speakers (pics)
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Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Baton Rouge, LA
yup.... went to hear Excelons and no one had them in stock... naturally, i ask why? response -- no one buys them b/c there are better speakers for the money. 
and i'm definitely wonder what sort of phase and reflection issues you have w/ that dash setup... i'm glad it floats your boat man... just be careful w/ the grills up high like that.
and i'm definitely wonder what sort of phase and reflection issues you have w/ that dash setup... i'm glad it floats your boat man... just be careful w/ the grills up high like that.
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From: CA.WA.[TX].VA
Originally posted by r2d2
There is a difference naturally... But the sound is not mummed anymore and I can listen to quiet parts of 'wish you were here' still recognizing all the music. Remember - the windshield acts as a reflector and since my dash speakers
produce 100hz-20khz (hi pass)
There is a difference naturally... But the sound is not mummed anymore and I can listen to quiet parts of 'wish you were here' still recognizing all the music. Remember - the windshield acts as a reflector and since my dash speakers
produce 100hz-20khz (hi pass)
the one to tell you but your speakers absolutely do not play from 100 Hz to 20 kHz. Even if the box says they play full-range, when you mount off-axis (as you've done), your drivers will roll off at a lower frequency. A good rule
of thumb is one octave (+/- 3dB) per 30
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From: Prague
This is going to be (finally) interesting discussion.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by b0mbrman
Grab a hold of an RTA and play pink noise or get a simple SPL meter (I've got one of the $50 ones from Radio Shack and it's surprisingly accurate) and play 1/2 octave test tones. I don't want to be
the one to tell you but your speakers absolutely do not play from 100 Hz to 20 kHz. Even if the box says they play full-range, when you mount off-axis (as you've done), your drivers will roll off at a lower frequency. A good rule
of thumb is one octave (+/- 3dB) per 30
[QUOTE]Originally posted by b0mbrman
Grab a hold of an RTA and play pink noise or get a simple SPL meter (I've got one of the $50 ones from Radio Shack and it's surprisingly accurate) and play 1/2 octave test tones. I don't want to be
the one to tell you but your speakers absolutely do not play from 100 Hz to 20 kHz. Even if the box says they play full-range, when you mount off-axis (as you've done), your drivers will roll off at a lower frequency. A good rule
of thumb is one octave (+/- 3dB) per 30
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From: Torrance, CA
Not sure if anyone's addressed the point so far, but I wouldn't recommend the dash speaker location because the speaker is now face up in a location exposed to direct sunlight. Your speakers will not have a very long life if you are baking them every day under the sunlight.
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From: CA.WA.[TX].VA
Wow. That's a lot of stuff. Okay, this is gonna be broken up because I'm at work.
K
Pink noise generator
RTA
or
Test tones
SPL Meter
Use the first two with each other or the second two with each other. And yes, each person's ears determine the sound. And sometimes, nothing sounds better than a great, big placebo
Great. Reflection.
You're aware that the SPL of a reflected tone is inversely related to its frequency right? So now you've got two problems with your highs--the dispersion rolloff in the incident response and the mid-heavy sound of the reflected response.
Yup. And does this opinion come from your extensive use of Morel drivers?
The one I used is a soft dome mid designed for shallow and surface mounting. The dome is 2" in diameter and the surround is just as big.
And of course the tweeter was in the surface mounting cup it came with.
Great. Now you're making me think back to music class.
The "color" (timbre to music types) of a sound is determined by its attack and decay and harmonic content (and vibrato if you want to get picky).
The harmonics of a sound are multiples of its fundamental frequency and what separates two musical instruments (speakers are instruments, aren't they?) is the amplitude of these harmonics. So, if your male vocalist (let's not even get into female) is singing just one octave above the middle octave, he would routinely be hitting notes above 1000 Hz; You can guess where the harmonics of those notes would be.
Furthermore, it takes a smaller drop in the SPL of a higher frequency harmonic for the human ear to recognize a change in timbre than it would for a low frequency harmonic.
Are you trying to recreate the original recording or are you trying to recreate how music sounds in a fixed-roof car?
As for reflections in a car:
Let's me start by saying that a correctly-designed music hall will have a reverberation time of two seconds--one of the more important technical parameters.
As this relates to car audio, a listener in any type of room hears the initial sound and every reflected sound. How much reflected sound?
Sound will continue to reflect until equilibrium which is where the amount of sound being absorbed by the walls at the (or car windows or leather seats) is equal to the sound being reflected by the wall. The sum of all this is called the reverberation sound and the time it takes to reach this equilibrium is called reverberation time.
For music hall designers, reverberation time is defined as the time it takes for the reflected sound to build up and decay to a level that is 6 dB down from the initial sound.
Now look at a car.
The idea of getting that two-second delay sorta throws the whole idea of using multiple speakers to reproduce the effects of a music hall out the window.
Wow, this post really went in a whole bunch of directions and it looks like I didn't do a very good job of breaking it up
Anyhow, that's that.
Next post: Phasing
This is going to be (finally) interesting discussion.
Never did it, would like to try. Point me to some url where I could find instruction what and how to do. Will post numbers as soon as I'd get them. One thing though - sound is not made by numbers, everyone's ear is different.
RTA
or
Test tones
SPL Meter
Use the first two with each other or the second two with each other. And yes, each person's ears determine the sound. And sometimes, nothing sounds better than a great, big placebo
r e f l e c t i o n. Even though in theory there should be interference between the waves coming straight and reflected in reality it works quite well. I am getting all spectrum available event though to be honest right above the middle console is THE perfect sound. I can't change it much by balancing, it's because the passenger speaker is more off the axis.
You're aware that the SPL of a reflected tone is inversely related to its frequency right? So now you've got two problems with your highs--the dispersion rolloff in the incident response and the mid-heavy sound of the reflected response.
How could you use this as a method to find out? Even sealed speaker will produce awful sound without the room behind. Nothing personal, but - geez...
The one I used is a soft dome mid designed for shallow and surface mounting. The dome is 2" in diameter and the surround is just as big.
And of course the tweeter was in the surface mounting cup it came with.
Nope. No matter how good tweets are the color is made of frequencies made down below. And these either need reflection (which you don't have with the top down) or they need to go directly (which they don't if they are located by your knees).
The "color" (timbre to music types) of a sound is determined by its attack and decay and harmonic content (and vibrato if you want to get picky).
The harmonics of a sound are multiples of its fundamental frequency and what separates two musical instruments (speakers are instruments, aren't they?) is the amplitude of these harmonics. So, if your male vocalist (let's not even get into female) is singing just one octave above the middle octave, he would routinely be hitting notes above 1000 Hz; You can guess where the harmonics of those notes would be.
Furthermore, it takes a smaller drop in the SPL of a higher frequency harmonic for the human ear to recognize a change in timbre than it would for a low frequency harmonic.
Yes, this is accurate and it only confirms what I was trying to say all over - DIRECTION if NO REFLECTION. In coupe or sedan you don't hear much of a difference since the sound is getting reflected from windows left and right. I convertible though - different story. There you see (or hear) this test as said. That said I can hear the same differences even with my speakers in dash. The difference is, though, that my base (starting point) is much better then if I would the stock location speakers so naturally the end result is better.
Actually - not at all. In fact I don't know where is the soundstage anymore. I am in the middle of it. Obviously I can play with it and move the soundstage wherever and whenever I want.
As for reflections in a car:
Let's me start by saying that a correctly-designed music hall will have a reverberation time of two seconds--one of the more important technical parameters.
As this relates to car audio, a listener in any type of room hears the initial sound and every reflected sound. How much reflected sound?
Sound will continue to reflect until equilibrium which is where the amount of sound being absorbed by the walls at the (or car windows or leather seats) is equal to the sound being reflected by the wall. The sum of all this is called the reverberation sound and the time it takes to reach this equilibrium is called reverberation time.
For music hall designers, reverberation time is defined as the time it takes for the reflected sound to build up and decay to a level that is 6 dB down from the initial sound.
Now look at a car.
The idea of getting that two-second delay sorta throws the whole idea of using multiple speakers to reproduce the effects of a music hall out the window.
Wow, this post really went in a whole bunch of directions and it looks like I didn't do a very good job of breaking it up
Anyhow, that's that.
Next post: Phasing
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From: Austin
It just doesn't look clean to me, you guys can discuss the acoustics till you're blue in the face, I just don't like the way it looks. Especially on a clean dash like the S2k's, it looks aweful with those grills sticking up.
I like the idea of having a midrange 4" and a tweeter up high, but it needs to be much more stealth.
I like the idea of having a midrange 4" and a tweeter up high, but it needs to be much more stealth.
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From: CA.WA.[TX].VA
Originally posted by CRX7
How about a nice little 3 or 4 inch mid in the air ducts? That would be stealth.
How about a nice little 3 or 4 inch mid in the air ducts? That would be stealth.
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From: Prague
on passengerside there is the room to sink the speaker. With custom grill leveled with dash I bet it would look nice. On driver side there is not more room to sink even shallow speaker like Xr401 are. Unless you want to redo the vent pipes - note, the vent connection is square.
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From: Austin
This would purely be to compliment a pair of components with the tweeter placed just forward of the door handle. So I'd get a second tweeter and a mid up high which is what I really want. Will have to do some experimenting and see what fits. I listend to some Infinity Kappa 3 1/2" speakers that sound great.
By the way lots of cars I've seen have dash mounted speakers reflecting off of the windshield. From what I've heard from the audio competition guys this high mounting location sounds great.
By the way lots of cars I've seen have dash mounted speakers reflecting off of the windshield. From what I've heard from the audio competition guys this high mounting location sounds great.