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Anyone running a GTX3584rs

 
Old 03-09-2019, 08:22 AM
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BW just updated 3 of their EFRs...Absolutely the lastest in compressor and turbine designs, twin scroll T4 with titanium aluminide turbine wheel for fast spool. It has a BOV built into the compressor housing and comes with a 3-port solenoid on the compressor housing. It is also available with a 0.92 A/R IWG turbine housing eliminating the need for dump tube merge into the downtube. Turbosmart makes wastegate actuators for it, including 2-port actuators.

Yes...the turbine wheel is bigger than a GTR3584RS, but different, lighter material. Not on the BW site yet,

https://www.full-race.com/store/borg...o-12747100019/
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Old 03-09-2019, 09:05 AM
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The EFR turbos are great for their transient response. They use titanium turbine wheels which are significantly lighter than their stainless counterparts. They are great for street use, road courses, and time attack but you do not see them used in drag competition. When you max out the larger titanium wheels, they tend to fail if you sustain max rpm for several short bursts. Titanium dissipates heat quickly but also becomes very brittle when exposed to high temps for extended times. That is why the military puts inconel suppressors on automatic weapons and titanium on the scout/long range rifles.
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Old 03-09-2019, 10:46 AM
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I had a precision 6062BB Gen2, was a piece of crap. Smoked straight out of the box, and had significant shaft play after the first heat cycle. Sent in after arguing with them and they said nothing was wrong. That turbo lasted less than a year. Wasted $1700.

Switched to a borg on the same exact setup and had zero issues. Now im going for more power again with the least amount of lag. BWs center section is too wide and would be an issue for me on their larger turbos. So I have to stick with a garrett.
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Old 03-09-2019, 11:23 AM
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Just to clean up the terminology a bit.

Standard gasoline turbo use inconel turbine wheels (can't recall the specific alloy) which has a service temp limit of ~980degC. Performance gasoline turbos use MarM (246 or 247 alloy) with a temp limit of 1050C. The higher temp limit allows more aggressive fueling and ignition timing for more power. The standard 2.3L Ecoboost in the Mustang rated at ~315hp uses an inconel turbine wheel. The 2.3L in the Focus RS with 350hp uses MarM for the turbine wheel and the turbine wheels are the same size if I remember correctly. I think they are different designs though. Titanium aluminide is what is used in the EFR turbos. Also used in IHI turbos on the Ferrari 488 among other places. It has a temp limit of ~950-980C. Titanium aluminide has about half the mass of inconel and MarM which gives it superior transient response for the same size wheel. It can't be pushed as hard though for maximum power due to the lower temp limit.
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Old 03-09-2019, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Charper732 View Post
I had a precision 6062BB Gen2, was a piece of crap. Smoked straight out of the box, and had significant shaft play after the first heat cycle. Sent in after arguing with them and they said nothing was wrong. That turbo lasted less than a year. Wasted $1700.

Switched to a borg on the same exact setup and had zero issues. Now im going for more power again with the least amount of lag. BWs center section is too wide and would be an issue for me on their larger turbos. So I have to stick with a garrett.
There's a reason for that. Garrett is the largest turbo supplier in the world and BW is the second. They make like 10+ million turbos each a year. The OEMs they supply have strict quality and durability requirements. Some of the off-highway sutff (mine trucks, pumping stations, etc) have a minimum 10,000 hour operating requirement. For your standard cars, it's typically like 100k-150k miles minimum. All of that OEM reliability engineering goes into their aftermarket performance turbos too.
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Old 03-09-2019, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidNJ View Post
BW just updated 3 of their EFRs...Absolutely the lastest in compressor and turbine designs, twin scroll T4 with titanium aluminide turbine wheel for fast spool. It has a BOV built into the compressor housing and comes with a 3-port solenoid on the compressor housing. It is also available with a 0.92 A/R IWG turbine housing eliminating the need for dump tube merge into the downtube. Turbosmart makes wastegate actuators for it, including 2-port actuators.

Yes...the turbine wheel is bigger than a GTR3584RS, but different, lighter material. Not on the BW site yet,

https://www.full-race.com/store/borg...o-12747100019/
Not quite sure how the EFR would have a space problem since it's internal wastegate with v-band turbine exit should make the simplest downpipe routing with no dump pipe and the built-in BOV eliminates that plumbing.

However, if the 2019 G42 is too big and the 2019 new EFRs are too wide, are you familiar with the GTX3584RS, which was introduced in 2016?

Originally Posted by wsenefeld View Post
The EFR turbos are great for their transient response. They use titanium turbine wheels which are significantly lighter than their stainless counterparts. They are great for street use, road courses, and time attack but you do not see them used in drag competition. When you max out the larger titanium wheels, they tend to fail if you sustain max rpm for several short bursts. Titanium dissipates heat quickly but also becomes very brittle when exposed to high temps for extended times. That is why the military puts inconel suppressors on automatic weapons and titanium on the scout/long range rifles.
Originally Posted by spdracerut View Post
Just to clean up the terminology a bit.

Standard gasoline turbo uses Inconel turbine wheels (can't recall the specific alloy) which has a service temp limit of ~980degC. Performance gasoline turbos use MarM (246 or 247 alloy) with a temp limit of 1050C. The higher temp limit allows more aggressive fueling and ignition timing for more power. The standard 2.3L Ecoboost in the Mustang rated at ~315hp uses an inconel turbine wheel. The 2.3L in the Focus RS with 350hp uses MarM for the turbine wheel and the turbine wheels are the same size if I remember correctly. I think they are different designs though. Titanium aluminide is what is used in the EFR turbos. Also used in IHI turbos on the Ferrari 488 among other places. It has a temp limit of ~950-980C. Titanium aluminide has about half the mass of inconel and MarM which gives it superior transient response for the same size wheel. It can't be pushed as hard though for maximum power due to the lower temp limit.
While the Mar-M has a higher temp, I can't recall anyone cooking an EFR so it exploded. In other applications (e.g. 2JZ-GTE) the reason given for not using an EFR has been they aren't big enough. The biggest EFRs top out at 1000 hp; Garrett and Precision go beyond that. A lot of people on the Supra forum seem to like the Precision; 4P used it for their 2.5L, 1200hp K24 on C85 build for Wiesco.

On the turbos discussed in this thread, the G42 has a MarM turbine, the GTX3584RS has Inconel and the EFR titanium aluminide. The GTX3584RS and EFR8474 have similar compressor maps. What makes those different is that the high-efficiency areas extend to around a 3.5 pressure ratio while most other small (<1000hp) turbos the efficiency starts dropping over 2.5 (< 20psi). OEM turbos have compressor maps where the efficiency is lower, under 2 and starting at lower mass flow rates. To use 3.5 the engine will probably be on race gas, maybe lower compression pistons, and probably turbo specific pistons (0.3+" thick crowns, dropped top-ring, etc.) and matching rods. Above 30psi head sealing and head retention issues show up; it is often fun to watch interviews of people 500hp per cylinder talk about their problems at boost over 60 or 80 psi.
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Old 03-09-2019, 03:12 PM
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https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...hp-602wtq.html

Here's a link to a guy who destroyed two EFR 9180s. Start with the 6th comment. Says he knows of a few others that have met similar fates
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Old 03-09-2019, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by wsenefeld View Post
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...hp-602wtq.html

Here's a link to a guy who destroyed two EFR 9180s. Start with the 6th comment. Says he knows of a few others that have met similar fates
He was trying to pump 850hp out of a turbo that can't do that. At least not without pre-compressor or volute methanol injection. 42psi and 37psi. The turbo died from over speed.

There is a new for 2019 EFR 9280 which moves the choke line out for boosts around 28-35psi, but those Mitsubishi's were running more boost than that. From BW, he would have needed a large SX400 or an SX500. From Garrett a larger GTX4xxx. Or a Precision.

BTW, you can see this for the BW turbos on their MatchBot software: Performance Turbos | BorgWarner Turbo Systems


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Old 03-09-2019, 05:21 PM
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The EFR turbo itself should be able to do it, right? Makes me wonder why it's already at max rpm. That 9174 is rated for 94 lbs/min. He was only at 3.86 pressure ratio and roughly 85 lbs/min which isn't even a terrible efficiency island.

Hope to see what this gtx3584rs will do on e98.
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Old 03-10-2019, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by wsenefeld View Post
The EFR turbo itself should be able to do it, right? Makes me wonder why it's already at max rpm. That 9174 is rated for 94 lbs/min. He was only at 3.86 pressure ratio and roughly 85 lbs/min which isn't even a terrible efficiency island.

Hope to see what this gtx3584rs will do on e98.
If he had any boost leaks, that would quickly put it in the danger zone if he was maxing it out. I've got a dyno tune scheduled on the 21st and we'll see what a bw257 on a divided T4 1.00 a/r can do.. That turbo is rated for 625 but im sure that has to be on the 1.22 or higher a/r. Im almost positive it'll choke itself out up top, but the low end boost is insane on that thing. 3-3.5k is full spool. Shortly after I'll be switching it out to either a 3582 or 3584.
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