Help a newbie
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From: Mandeville, La
Originally Posted by 05TurboS2k,Oct 17 2008, 06:59 AM
Longer rev-zone = hard to drive... always. Look at streetbikes, very few in the world can properly extract power from something that redlines at 16,000 rpm. A 350 Z is easier to drive for the same reason. There's something to be said about "usable power" it's worth more then anything else, it means you can be outa gear and get away with it better, it means you don't have to stare at your tach as hard while your driving to stay perfectly on the rev's.
If I had the choice to make my car do everything it does now and redline at 6k I would do it in a heartbeat because it would mean I have WAY more TQ and a way better powerband.
When it comes to straight line power LOWER REDLINE WINS. Simple fact is this. The engine makes power at a high RPM and the wheels start out at 0 RPM. The way you get the wheels to match the speed of the engine is through the clutch, the higher the rev zone, the more slipping/grinding the clutch must do which means POWER WASTED, not to mention harder to control launch. When you slip the clutch you create heat from friction... we all know that the energy in the form of heat means less energy to move the car forward and... more clutch wear.
I wouldn't call the ap2 watered down because stock for stock on a track, it'll spank the Ap1 by 95% of drivers hands down. I've driven both back to back and I'd say a very talented driver (pro driver) would be able to get the most of an AP1 and it could be a debate, but to 99.99% of S owners the Ap2 will turn a better lap simply because it's easier to control and is confident building.
As for gearing....well that's gearing, and if you want to get serious then change your gearing because NEITHER fit the track perfectly but both fit it just fine IMO. Theoretically your gearing should be set up specifically for each track you drive (WE WISH WE HAD THAT MONEY) and since that doesn't happen, one track will benefit an Ap2 and one will benefit an AP1. If a track happens to make you either ride redline or shift one quick shift before braking you know your missing time but then again.... the ap1 might have the same problem in another corner or on another track. It's a wash. The SWEET SPOT is going to be easier to stay in when in a AP2 then an AP1. Vtec range is 1k shorter but then again, the ap2 makes power out of Vtec better then the Ap1 and the gearing works out to make that 2k of Vtec it does have, last longer.
Both are plenty capable. I'd take the Ap2 anyday for simple drive-ability and longevity.
If Honda thought the 2.0 motor was superior to the 2.2 ....why is their "track version" the CR a 2.2 ap2? Simple..... HONDA KNOWS THE 2.2 IS BETTER and they know the spring rate realtionship of the Ap1 is better, so they did the simple thing get an ap2 and put ap1 sways/springs on it.
-Greg
If I had the choice to make my car do everything it does now and redline at 6k I would do it in a heartbeat because it would mean I have WAY more TQ and a way better powerband.
When it comes to straight line power LOWER REDLINE WINS. Simple fact is this. The engine makes power at a high RPM and the wheels start out at 0 RPM. The way you get the wheels to match the speed of the engine is through the clutch, the higher the rev zone, the more slipping/grinding the clutch must do which means POWER WASTED, not to mention harder to control launch. When you slip the clutch you create heat from friction... we all know that the energy in the form of heat means less energy to move the car forward and... more clutch wear.
I wouldn't call the ap2 watered down because stock for stock on a track, it'll spank the Ap1 by 95% of drivers hands down. I've driven both back to back and I'd say a very talented driver (pro driver) would be able to get the most of an AP1 and it could be a debate, but to 99.99% of S owners the Ap2 will turn a better lap simply because it's easier to control and is confident building.
As for gearing....well that's gearing, and if you want to get serious then change your gearing because NEITHER fit the track perfectly but both fit it just fine IMO. Theoretically your gearing should be set up specifically for each track you drive (WE WISH WE HAD THAT MONEY) and since that doesn't happen, one track will benefit an Ap2 and one will benefit an AP1. If a track happens to make you either ride redline or shift one quick shift before braking you know your missing time but then again.... the ap1 might have the same problem in another corner or on another track. It's a wash. The SWEET SPOT is going to be easier to stay in when in a AP2 then an AP1. Vtec range is 1k shorter but then again, the ap2 makes power out of Vtec better then the Ap1 and the gearing works out to make that 2k of Vtec it does have, last longer.
Both are plenty capable. I'd take the Ap2 anyday for simple drive-ability and longevity.
If Honda thought the 2.0 motor was superior to the 2.2 ....why is their "track version" the CR a 2.2 ap2? Simple..... HONDA KNOWS THE 2.2 IS BETTER and they know the spring rate realtionship of the Ap1 is better, so they did the simple thing get an ap2 and put ap1 sways/springs on it.
-Greg
You want the car to do everything it does now and redline at 6k? Buy a damn Z because you certainly don't belong in an S2000 if you can't appreciate the essence of the car... that is its high revving nature. It wouldn't be F1 inspired if it sounded like a lawnmower at redline.
Yes, you're right. In STRAIGHT LINE POWER, lower redline (which is highly subjective since you are not qualifying ANY other characteristics of the motor, but I'll assume I know what you mean) will win 9 times out of ten. BUT when has this car ever been about straight line power? Seriously think about your arguments before you go running your mouth like this.
Face it, the AP2 was a pathetic attempt by Honda to produce a car that wasn't as volatile as the AP1. They took the hard facts, that is the number of accidents in AP1's due to their delicate handling, and tried to make them a more friendly beast.... and in the process they messed with what made the AP1 so great to a driver who could actually drive the car. I'm not saying that the AP2 isn't a great car, in many ways I would prefer it to the AP1, but not performance wise. Softer suspension.. and they used a wider wheel/tire in an attempt to counteract the nature of the suspension, a suspension that needed redesigning in the first place. Essentially putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound.
You can't make arguments about the car in stock form and just throw out gearing because "if you want to get serious then change your gearing".. blah blah blah. Gearing has just as much to do with this as anything else. You can't make an argument about putting the dueling S's head to head with the same driver. Both cars perform well under certain conditions. Obviously the AP1 will have a gearing advantage at speed (after the first lap) on a faster track... the AP2 would have an advantage on a slower track... but all of that is negated when we talk about the car in stock form because the cars are not equal in other ways... like suspension. A competent driver will appreciate the stiffer suspension of the AP1 on a track. Sure it's not as "forgiving", but who wants forgiving on a track?
And the "sweet spot" is also highly subjective to conditions. You can't say that it will be easier in one car or another. That is why I used a specific example like the dragon... if you don't believe me, I can put you in contact with respected and competent AP2 drivers who outright said that an extra 1k would have greatly benefited them in those conditions.... conditions when the car is in its element... conditions where the car lives above 7000 rpms... conditions that would be hard to replicate even on a track.
/rant
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Get an AP2 if you got the money. Enjoy what little luxury Honda actually gives you in the AP2+Turbo or get an AP1+Turbo to save money. But to be honest the AP2 in stock form looks a BILLION times better (exaggeration is a million times) than AP1. Ask why so many get all the AP2 parts. Also, as far as power or driveability I cannot say one is better than the other, because I have driven both in NA and Turbo form and don't have a single complaint. Hey if your also thinking of getting aftermarket body parts then go AP1 all the way.
James D.
James D.
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From: Mandeville, La
Originally Posted by Enthralled,Oct 17 2008, 02:02 PM
He's asking which would perform better when turbocharged. the AP2 is better...psi for psi the AP2 puts down more WHP/WTQ.
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From: Attleboro, Mass
looking better is all personal oppinion, I feel the ap1 looks better but thats me i know alot of people think the ap2 looks better. Difference in power the ap2 makes 9 more torque at the engine how would that make the car that much easier to drive. I like ap1s better because of our redline but some like ap2s better dont make it an argument about that its all personal preference. To the OP get what you like read up on this site and see what car better suites you! and good luck to you!
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From: Seattle / Kalifornia
Originally Posted by Enthralled,Oct 17 2008, 03:02 PM
He's asking which would perform better when turbocharged. the AP2 is better...psi for psi the AP2 puts down more WHP/WTQ.
But some AP1 owners seem to have some kind of insecurity about their lack of tq and their skinny lil girl tires that come stock
sorry to you other AP1 guys
This guy must have caught verbal diareaha from Mrjulius (who is sharper then this fella I think so far)-G
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From: Mandeville, La
Originally Posted by 05TurboS2k,Oct 17 2008, 07:54 PM
your lack of driver ability precedes you sir that's why your not picking up what I'm putting down. No I personally don't stare at the tach, HOWEVER majority of track drivers are not PERFECT when it comes to shifting right on the mark and keeping in the sweet spot... which means in a powerful rpm range to make it as basic as possible in explanation here, that's "staying on the rev's".
The Ap1 and Ap2 are damn close stock for stock in a straight line....even while the AP2 runs larger tires, perhaps they put larger tires on it because it had the hp/tq to pull them. It wasn't a desperate attempt at anything. Your loyalty to the Ap1 is laughable honestly. I'd drive the hell out of either car but I'd prefer the Ap2 to own any day, especially for FI like the OP posted I believe.
I actually have raced 2 wheels and 4 wheels for 20 years total and understand some simple things that apply to all the forms of racing I've done, they were as I stated your disagreement with them or lack of understand tells me you have a limited racing background if there is one at all.
The difference between you and I is you would put me contact with someone who has knowledge first hand where as I personally have first hand knowledge on a track. I'm not gonna sit here and brag about my accomplishments but like I said...I'm speaking 101 here.
The ap1 is without a doubt a more aggressive car, that doesn't make it faster. Usable power is what wins in this world, try racing something that has the powerband of a light switch...it's quite difficult. I'd trade max hp for usable power any day. Anyone with experience can tell you that sir.
I'm not going to continue further because I feel like I'm arguing with a middle schooler about racing when the only racing they understand is what they saw in Fast N furious.
-Greg
that's why your not picking up what I'm putting down. No I personally don't stare at the tach, HOWEVER majority of track drivers are not PERFECT when it comes to shifting right on the mark and keeping in the sweet spot... which means in a powerful rpm range to make it as basic as possible in explanation here, that's "staying on the rev's".The Ap1 and Ap2 are damn close stock for stock in a straight line....even while the AP2 runs larger tires, perhaps they put larger tires on it because it had the hp/tq to pull them. It wasn't a desperate attempt at anything. Your loyalty to the Ap1 is laughable honestly. I'd drive the hell out of either car but I'd prefer the Ap2 to own any day, especially for FI like the OP posted I believe.
I actually have raced 2 wheels and 4 wheels for 20 years total and understand some simple things that apply to all the forms of racing I've done, they were as I stated your disagreement with them or lack of understand tells me you have a limited racing background if there is one at all.
The difference between you and I is you would put me contact with someone who has knowledge first hand where as I personally have first hand knowledge on a track. I'm not gonna sit here and brag about my accomplishments but like I said...I'm speaking 101 here.
The ap1 is without a doubt a more aggressive car, that doesn't make it faster. Usable power is what wins in this world, try racing something that has the powerband of a light switch...it's quite difficult. I'd trade max hp for usable power any day. Anyone with experience can tell you that sir.
I'm not going to continue further because I feel like I'm arguing with a middle schooler about racing when the only racing they understand is what they saw in Fast N furious.
-Greg
Contrary to what you believe, I don't have a loyalty to the AP1. I perviously had another AP1... when I went to trade up I had my heart set on an AP2, but I got a great deal on another AP1. What are you talking about "perhaps they put larger tires on it because it had the hp/tq to pull them".. this is the biggest load of crap you have suggested yet. The AP2 is rated at the same HP and only 9 ft lbs difference in torque. A manufacturer isn't going to spend the extra money on development for wider wheels and more expensive tires without trying to solve a problem.. not just because the car has the "torque to pull them" (that means nothing by the way... that sentence pretty much sums up your "knowledge"..."the torque to pull them" BRILLIANT!) Whether you want to believe it or not, the wider tires were an attempt to fix a suspension problem and keep the rear wheels where they belong... like I said, putting a band aid on the snap oversteer issue which I AM SAYING IS A FLAW OF THE AP1! Wow, not so loyal to the AP1 after all!
I never said that I would "put you in contact with someone who has knowledge". What I said is that I could put you in contact with respected and competent AP2 owners who outright admit that the extra rpm's would have greatly benefited them IN THE SPECIFIC CONDITIONS THAT I MENTIONED. Unlike you, I'm not so naive as to generalize performance to all conditions (which I believe sums up your so called experience... race a little, you'll understand!). You're putting words in my mouth which is a pathetic way of trying to make yourself look better. Never once did I outright say that "the AP1 is faster".
I don't expect to to "continue further" because frankly I think you're over your head and you know it. If anyone has been catching up on their "Fast N Furious racing knowledge", I believe it to be you sir, with your "The Ap1 and Ap2 are damn close stock for stock in a straight line".
Someone please lock this thread before this guy makes an even bigger fool of himself.