6-point Harness vs. 3-point OEM on the Street
03-05-2018, 05:53 PM
#51
After my last even where i drove to and from the track using the 6-point, I'll be switching to it full time. Is it a pain in the ass? Yes, absolutely. I have to position and get everything in the car set prior to leaving - there's essentially zero movement in the car when the belts are adjusted properly as they should be. Also, with the belts clinched down, I actually need to have the door open while getting one of the buckles on...
I'm going to keep the bulk head bar for the OEM seat I have in the passenger position. It will be reserved for the random off chance here and there that my wife rides in the car (likely never on track). She's 5'0" and can have the seat pushed forward, so she won't be contacting the bar anytime soon.
I used a seat belt extender when I had my SPG seat and was running the OEM 3 point and OEM hoops. I don't even want to bother with that setup anymore.
It's going to be 6-point all the time, every time for me as the driver.
I'm going to keep the bulk head bar for the OEM seat I have in the passenger position. It will be reserved for the random off chance here and there that my wife rides in the car (likely never on track). She's 5'0" and can have the seat pushed forward, so she won't be contacting the bar anytime soon.
I used a seat belt extender when I had my SPG seat and was running the OEM 3 point and OEM hoops. I don't even want to bother with that setup anymore.
It's going to be 6-point all the time, every time for me as the driver.
03-06-2018, 03:39 AM
#52
In the event of a large accident, the 6-point harness is almost certainly going to keep you safer if all things are properly considered. Whether you have a HANS device or not. Will a HANS device protect you even better? Yes. (probably considerably better than an airbag ever could) Will not wearing one kill you? Absolutely not.
Of course, wearing a 6 point harness on the street is going to be extremely annoying, limit your movement in the car a lot, and possibly put you in a situation where you can't easily see behind yourself or something similar. This would be even worse if wearing a helmet and HANS device. So while you will be much safer in the event of a major accident, you are probably a little more likely to get into an accident in the first place due to something stupid. Driving with the safest possible safety equipment on the street isn't legal, because it is very situational.
All this said, I think you mfers that trust these mickey-mouse ass roll bar makers who don't test anything they make because they are just bootlegging someone else's design or just trying to sell things as cheap as possible are ****ing crazy. Especially some of the absolute garbage OEM 3 point belt mounting points I have seen welded on to some of them. And even worse is the way some people mount their OEM belt receptacle in the worst possible position around the outside of their bucket seat to some welded on bracket on their seat rail. So many people like to preach safety and are never willing to pay for the actual development and testing required to provide it.
Of course, wearing a 6 point harness on the street is going to be extremely annoying, limit your movement in the car a lot, and possibly put you in a situation where you can't easily see behind yourself or something similar. This would be even worse if wearing a helmet and HANS device. So while you will be much safer in the event of a major accident, you are probably a little more likely to get into an accident in the first place due to something stupid. Driving with the safest possible safety equipment on the street isn't legal, because it is very situational.
All this said, I think you mfers that trust these mickey-mouse ass roll bar makers who don't test anything they make because they are just bootlegging someone else's design or just trying to sell things as cheap as possible are ****ing crazy. Especially some of the absolute garbage OEM 3 point belt mounting points I have seen welded on to some of them. And even worse is the way some people mount their OEM belt receptacle in the worst possible position around the outside of their bucket seat to some welded on bracket on their seat rail. So many people like to preach safety and are never willing to pay for the actual development and testing required to provide it.
As far as the roll bar I had extensive discussion with RSG and a local cage builder before going with RSG. The end decision was due to cost and the convenience of not having to get my car 2hrs to the builder, but I was very confident in talking to RSG and the details they could provide. In fact I had a weird mark around the bends when I got the roll bar and messaged Justin, he promptly responded and even went to his manufacturer where they figured out it was a slight wear mark in the die they use. This mark was super small and most would have never even noticed it, but he wanted to be sure it was safe.
After installing the RSG, I do not like how the OEM belts route, but I really don’t know that there is a good solution. The replacement bar itself is clearly stronger than the OEM plus the way the force is directed there is zero chance of any failure where the reel mounts. Again the big issue is routing but if your running aftermarket seats you already have compromised that.
The bar itself isn’t failing. The first thing you notice when installing an aftermarket bar is how damn thin the floor pan of the car is, you will punch through before the bar fails. With that any bar that has a small surface area at the “feet” could pose a big risk. I also would not weld one of these in without supporting under the bar, the backing plates do provide strength when sandwiched together IMO.
The big advantages you would have going custom is one going with a different lighter material which could really increase cost. Two you could run bars into the trunk to further support the bar from punching through, although you could always add that to one the purchased bars. Also the harness mounting height is certainly something to consider when shopping for a bar, but even custom you are very limited due to the car itself.
And after pulling the OEM hoops, if you think we are nuts and you still trust that to save you.........
03-06-2018, 12:25 PM
#53
I plan on having my harness bar cut off and welded down lower during the offseason.
03-09-2018, 08:16 AM
#54
This is where the limits of street/track cars comes into play. The overall safety/protection needs during street driving is different enough from serious track driving that it warrants a different safety system. The OEM seat, belt, bags and rollover/impact protection is designed to work in concert within the application of a street car. OEM safety systems are insufficient for serious competitive track driving. Ideally the entire system should be replaced, not single pieces. This applies to application, if you replace the OEM system with a track safety system, the entire system should be utilized in whole. Using a hybrid of a track and OEM safety components on the street may actually make you less safe.
It comes down to adaptability and application. The OEM system will protect you under a wider range of conditions and likely threats you will encounter on the street. A track safety system will work well on a more narrow scope of threats. The track safety system has more capability but in a narrower range. You really can't have your cake and eat it too. If you have a race wheel, race seat, harness, hans, roll bar, harness bar etc... Your car is really no long a street/track car.
Time to buy a trailer and tow vehicle.
It comes down to adaptability and application. The OEM system will protect you under a wider range of conditions and likely threats you will encounter on the street. A track safety system will work well on a more narrow scope of threats. The track safety system has more capability but in a narrower range. You really can't have your cake and eat it too. If you have a race wheel, race seat, harness, hans, roll bar, harness bar etc... Your car is really no long a street/track car.
Time to buy a trailer and tow vehicle.
03-09-2018, 08:25 AM
#55
Community Organizer
This is where the limits of street/track cars comes into play. The overall safety/protection needs during street driving is different enough from serious track driving that it warrants a different safety system. The OEM seat, belt, bags and rollover/impact protection is designed to work in concert within the application of a street car. OEM safety systems are insufficient for serious competitive track driving. Ideally the entire system should be replaced, not single pieces. This applies to application, if you replace the OEM system with a track safety system, the entire system should be utilized in whole. Using a hybrid of a track and OEM safety components on the street may actually make you less safe.
It comes down to adaptability and application. The OEM system will protect you under a wider range of conditions and likely threats you will encounter on the street. A track safety system will work well on a more narrow scope of threats. The track safety system has more capability but in a narrower range. You really can't have your cake and eat it too. If you have a race wheel, race seat, harness, hans, roll bar, harness bar etc... Your car is really no long a street/track car.
Time to buy a trailer and tow vehicle.
It comes down to adaptability and application. The OEM system will protect you under a wider range of conditions and likely threats you will encounter on the street. A track safety system will work well on a more narrow scope of threats. The track safety system has more capability but in a narrower range. You really can't have your cake and eat it too. If you have a race wheel, race seat, harness, hans, roll bar, harness bar etc... Your car is really no long a street/track car.
Time to buy a trailer and tow vehicle.
I don't think OEM SRS are tested at the speeds seen on track. But I could be wrong.
03-09-2018, 09:10 AM
#56
Agreed. Anecdotally, most of the track day fatalities I've read about over the years involved cars without full OEM safety, and generally with a big flaw in the setup (no containment seat, 4pt belt, etc). Granted, it's not nearly as common as if you're in the motorcycle track circle, but still, it happens.
03-09-2018, 09:57 AM
#57
Community Organizer
OFF TOPIC:
Speaking of motorcycle track days, where I got my start, there was a helicopter flight or an ambulance roll at EVERY SINGLE EVENT. (or so it seemed)
Speaking of motorcycle track days, where I got my start, there was a helicopter flight or an ambulance roll at EVERY SINGLE EVENT. (or so it seemed)
03-09-2018, 10:53 AM
#58
There was an ambulance on-site every single event, no exception. At some of the larger events in Northern California there was a medivac helicopter on standby. They got used often. I had a high-side that ended up in a pretty decent concussion but I was somehow able to miss medical checkout, pack my shit into the trailer, and drive home. I have very little memory of this. Another crash up at Thunderhill (some 1000mi from home, at the time) spelled the end of my riding days.
03-09-2018, 03:12 PM
#59
In the event of a large accident, the 6-point harness is almost certainly going to keep you safer if all things are properly considered. Whether you have a HANS device or not. Will a HANS device protect you even better? Yes. (probably considerably better than an airbag ever could) Will not wearing one kill you? Absolutely not.
But everything in context. Roll bars first made it to F1 in 1961 after Harry Schell's fatal crash. Seat belts were optional until 1970. The picture below shows Jimmy Clark in his car at his last race at Hockenheim in 1968. No belts. In the 1969 US Grand Prix, Graham Hill stopped and restarted without fastening his belts. In a subsequent accident, he was thrown from the car breaking both legs.
1968 was the year the roll bar needed to be 2"/50cm above the driver's helmet. Dan Gurney brought closed face helmet to F1 from motorcycle racing later that year at the German GP.
In SCCA racing in the 1970s a roll cage wasn't required and some classes used bolt-in roll bars by the rules.
F1 now has some penetration protection in a structure above and in front of the driver. They have required Zylon shields 2011 after Felipe Massa was hit with a spring. Bell charges $500 per visor.
The basal fractures the HANS device limits are relatively rare. As are the lateral snaps that a containment seat restrains. The weight of the helmet makes this worse than a similar accident in a street car.
Race Car Driver Deaths: The Medical Causes of Racing Deaths w Examples - Race Car Driver Deaths: The Medical Causes of Racing Deaths w Examples
03-09-2018, 05:45 PM
#60
Community Organizer
HANS devices are relatively recent. Before Earnhardt's 2001 accident they were a niche item.
But everything in context. Roll bars first made it to F1 in 1961 after Harry Schell's fatal crash. Seat belts were optional until 1970. The picture below shows Jimmy Clark in his car at his last race at Hockenheim in 1968. No belts. In the 1969 US Grand Prix, Graham Hill stopped and restarted without fastening his belts. In a subsequent accident, he was thrown from the car breaking both legs.
1968 was the year the roll bar needed to be 2"/50cm above the driver's helmet. Dan Gurney brought closed face helmet to F1 from motorcycle racing later that year at the German GP.
In SCCA racing in the 1970s a roll cage wasn't required and some classes used bolt-in roll bars by the rules.
F1 now has some penetration protection in a structure above and in front of the driver. They have required Zylon shields 2011 after Felipe Massa was hit with a spring. Bell charges $500 per visor.
The basal fractures the HANS device limits are relatively rare. As are the lateral snaps that a containment seat restrains. The weight of the helmet makes this worse than a similar accident in a street car.
But everything in context. Roll bars first made it to F1 in 1961 after Harry Schell's fatal crash. Seat belts were optional until 1970. The picture below shows Jimmy Clark in his car at his last race at Hockenheim in 1968. No belts. In the 1969 US Grand Prix, Graham Hill stopped and restarted without fastening his belts. In a subsequent accident, he was thrown from the car breaking both legs.
1968 was the year the roll bar needed to be 2"/50cm above the driver's helmet. Dan Gurney brought closed face helmet to F1 from motorcycle racing later that year at the German GP.
In SCCA racing in the 1970s a roll cage wasn't required and some classes used bolt-in roll bars by the rules.
F1 now has some penetration protection in a structure above and in front of the driver. They have required Zylon shields 2011 after Felipe Massa was hit with a spring. Bell charges $500 per visor.
The basal fractures the HANS device limits are relatively rare. As are the lateral snaps that a containment seat restrains. The weight of the helmet makes this worse than a similar accident in a street car.