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Brake Setup Advice please

 
Old 12-26-2018, 06:06 PM
  #31  
 
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Best brake upgrade for s2k = Stoptech ST-40 BBK (includes stainless steel brake lines). I use project mu club racer pads for front and carbotech xp8 in the rear. Never used the ST-43 pad but seems to have good reputation on forums.
My rear setup is the urge rear flow rotors. Very important as well since your rears won't overheat (500+ F) which boils the brake fluid and makes your pedal mushy after 1-2 days of tracking.
I use castrol SRF brake fluid, my opinion it is worth the extra money (I didn't have to rebleed my brakes all season with this fluid since pedal remains rock solid with my setup). I previously used motul RBF 600 and Type 200 but those are inferior if you look at wet boiling temperatures.

With the stoptech BBK you don't even need brake ducting since it dissipates the heat it generates very well. Same applies for urge rear flow rotors, no need for rear ducting. My temperatures were 250-300F in rear with those vented rotors.

This is the best budget setup hands down for firm consistent brakes for multiple track days. Wasted 2 years trying different setups (pads, rotors, fluid, etc.) just get the BBK ($1500 from rockstar garage) and be done with it. Stock calipers will never feel as firm as BBK due to poor design of sliding single piston caliper compared to 4 pot non-sliding calipers.

You will need to get new rims to fit the BBK. I use Tc105n wedsport rims 17x9 which are not too pricey and high quality.

The weakest point in the s2000 is the stock brakes in my opinion. Once you get this changed, your confidence in the car will rise so much since you can count on your brakes and pedal feel is firm as hell.
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Old 12-27-2018, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Xene View Post
Best brake upgrade for s2k = Stoptech ST-40 BBK (includes stainless steel brake lines). I use project mu club racer pads for front and carbotech xp8 in the rear. Never used the ST-43 pad but seems to have good reputation on forums.
My rear setup is the urge rear flow rotors. Very important as well since your rears won't overheat (500+ F) which boils the brake fluid and makes your pedal mushy after 1-2 days of tracking.
I use castrol SRF brake fluid, my opinion it is worth the extra money (I didn't have to rebleed my brakes all season with this fluid since pedal remains rock solid with my setup). I previously used motul RBF 600 and Type 200 but those are inferior if you look at wet boiling temperatures.

With the stoptech BBK you don't even need brake ducting since it dissipates the heat it generates very well. Same applies for urge rear flow rotors, no need for rear ducting. My temperatures were 250-300F in rear with those vented rotors.

This is the best budget setup hands down for firm consistent brakes for multiple track days. Wasted 2 years trying different setups (pads, rotors, fluid, etc.) just get the BBK ($1500 from rockstar garage) and be done with it. Stock calipers will never feel as firm as BBK due to poor design of sliding single piston caliper compared to 4 pot non-sliding calipers.

You will need to get new rims to fit the BBK. I use Tc105n wedsport rims 17x9 which are not too pricey and high quality.

The weakest point in the s2000 is the stock brakes in my opinion. Once you get this changed, your confidence in the car will rise so much since you can count on your brakes and pedal feel is firm as hell.
I agree with this approach to upgrade the front to a BBK and use the URGE rear vented rotors. But I'd add that there are other front BBKs to consider as well. The Stoptech is a safe bet but you pay for the pleasure of having their brand name. The Sakebomb Garage Track Day kit with Brembo calipers and their own rotors is cheaper to buy (currently $1285) and also much cheaper when you have to replace the rotors ($350 set vs. $600). The specs of the two kits similar in terms of rotor size and the Wilwoods are lighter than the ST-40 caliper. Anyone upgrading should consider both options.

As for wheels, the TSW Nurburgring 17x9 +63 clears both BBKs and are reasonably light and rugged so should also be on the consideration list.
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Old 12-27-2018, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by DanielB View Post
I agree with this approach to upgrade the front to a BBK and use the URGE rear vented rotors. But I'd add that there are other front BBKs to consider as well. The Stoptech is a safe bet but you pay for the pleasure of having their brand name. The Sakebomb Garage Track Day kit with Brembo calipers and their own rotors is cheaper to buy (currently $1285) and also much cheaper when you have to replace the rotors ($350 set vs. $600). The specs of the two kits similar in terms of rotor size and the Wilwoods are lighter than the ST-40 caliper. Anyone upgrading should consider both options.

As for wheels, the TSW Nurburgring 17x9 +63 clears both BBKs and are reasonably light and rugged so should also be on the consideration list.
Agree. The discussion here is track days, not cars in wheel-to-wheel or time trial competition built to strict rules and running in big fields of competitive cars. An example of the later would be the SCCA runoffs or Solo II nationals.

Rigidity and even force application to the pad (remember the caliper is under heavy twisting forces in addition to the clamping force) are the first priority. Any of the BBK kits, or just pads and the Girodisc rotors with the OEM front calipers should be enough for most track day cars. If the car has lots of power and the driver is cautious in the turns, then rotor, caliper, and ducting would be a bit more complicated. Less power, sticky tires, and a fast driver will put fewer demands on the brakes.
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Old 12-27-2018, 08:26 AM
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Let me add one more datapoint based on my experience. I had been running with stock calipers and rotors, DTC-60 pads and 2.5" ducting and when I switched to a square 255 tire (RS4), fade began to determine how late I could brake, not tire traction. When I switched to the URGE rear rotors, I also tried a set of Girodisc up front. I never did any back to back testing of Centric vs. Girodisc, but subjectively I found it hard to say that there was a significant improvement in fade. And the improvement I did feel was mostly likely due to the URGE in the rear.

If you want to stay with the stock calipers (perhaps you don't want to change wheels for BBK clearance) AND are cracking rotors, then the Girodisc might be a good solution as the rotors are floating - but it's a pricey one. But otherwise they really don't add much thermal capacity beyond the stock rotors.
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Old 12-27-2018, 11:17 AM
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When I first started TTing I thought the stock brakes were inadequate. I was running DTC70's and they'd crack rotors all the time.

I'd recommend going to a different compound like the ST43 before spending the cash on a BBK. BBK isn't needed on these cars unless you want to run a super aggressive pad. Stock calipers and rotors work great with ST43s and I'm sure there are other endurace focused compounds that would also work well if the ST43's aren't available where you are.
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Old 12-27-2018, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by eastcoastbumps View Post
When I first started TTing I thought the stock brakes were inadequate. I was running DTC70's and they'd crack rotors all the time.

I'd recommend going to a different compound like the ST43 before spending the cash on a BBK. BBK isn't needed on these cars unless you want to run a super aggressive pad. Stock calipers and rotors work great with ST43s and I'm sure there are other endurace focused compounds that would also work well if the ST43's aren't available where you are.
The pedal feel of the BBK will be superior and that is what I wanted for confidence. Sliding caliper versus non-sliding calipers is the reason. No matter what pad you use pedal feel won't be the same. Also buying girodisc rotors aint cheap and rather spend that money toward a long term solution of BBK

I didn't know about the cheaper option from Sakebomb so 1200$ its a no brainer.
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Old 12-28-2018, 12:41 AM
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Thank you all for all the advice. Appreciate it.
I think i will have to save up for some URGE rear disks as it seems it´s a proven solution. For the front i will try some cheaper BBK (yellowspeed, same as k sport, d2 etc etc taiwan made) for the moment, as i can find ones locally and i see some guys running them with good feedback and see how it goes.
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Old 12-28-2018, 09:26 AM
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Before you jump to those cheaper alternatives, make sure you do your research on pad shape and compounds available for the caliper option you're going to run.

The SBG wilwood kit is a decent option, and the cheapest option that I would consider. However, I've been reading that it does shift your brake bias a bit (something the ST40 kit does not do). My advice is to save the money for a known and proven BBK with good pad compound selection, and hold off the URGE rear until later. The best bang for buck return will be the ST40 kit up front.
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Old 12-28-2018, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Bullwings View Post
Before you jump to those cheaper alternatives, make sure you do your research on pad shape and compounds available for the caliper option you're going to run.

The SBG wilwood kit is a decent option, and the cheapest option that I would consider. However, I've been reading that it does shift your brake bias a bit (something the ST40 kit does not do). My advice is to save the money for a known and proven BBK with good pad compound selection, and hold off the URGE rear until later. The best bang for buck return will be the ST40 kit up front.
The Stoptech ST40 BBK shifts the bias forward 5%. The SBG shifts it back 5%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
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Old 12-28-2018, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by wochi View Post
Thank you all for all the advice. Appreciate it.
I think i will have to save up for some URGE rear disks as it seems it´s a proven solution. For the front i will try some cheaper BBK (yellowspeed, same as k sport, d2 etc etc taiwan made) for the moment, as i can find ones locally and i see some guys running them with good feedback and see how it goes.
Remember that it is rotor mass and cooling (the vents) that improve fade resistance. Fancy, super stiff calipers won't mean that much on an S2000 with OEM pedals. However, a caliper that isn't stiff enough would be a problem; the OEM cast iron caliper is pretty stiff.

Originally Posted by Bullwings View Post
Before you jump to those cheaper alternatives, make sure you do your research on pad shape and compounds available for the caliper option you're going to run.

The SBG wilwood kit is a decent option, and the cheapest option that I would consider. However, I've been reading that it does shift your brake bias a bit (something the ST40 kit does not do). My advice is to save the money for a known and proven BBK with good pad compound selection, and hold off the URGE rear until later. The best bang for buck return will be the ST40 kit up front.
An extremely important point. There are some pad shapes that are widely supported. Some, not so much. I believe the AP calipers and Wilwood are using the Wilwood Superlite pads, widely used in late model stock car racing. The Stoptech has been widely used on a variety of cars for a long time also leading to a wide selection.

Originally Posted by DanielB View Post
The Stoptech ST40 BBK shifts the bias forward 5%. The SBG shifts it back 5%.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
Brake bias is also affected mechanical grip, a function of the track surface, tire adhesion, aerodynamic downforce, etc. At 1g braking, maybe 500-500lb transfers to the front. At 1.5g (e.g. Hoosier A7s on a sticky track) it is 800-850lb. a

Most race cars have a bias adjustment in the brake pedal or rear brake line. In those cases, one master cylinder does the front and the other the rear (vs. the cross pattern in the Honda) and bias can also be adjusted by changing master cylinder diameter. Bias is often adjusted during a race as the tires wear and track conditions change. Many adjust the bias by using different pad compounds. When I started racing late model stock cars it was common for the cars to have too much rear bias and use split pad compounds and different diameter master cylinders to compensate.

Urge has a good description of BBK design issues on their webpage: Essex AP Racing Front Brake Kit | URGE designs.
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