Imput on S2K vs FD3S comparison..
05-22-2018, 08:04 AM
#21
You forgot to mention that you can get C5s stupid cheap. Like under $10k cheap.
05-22-2018, 08:48 AM
#22
05-22-2018, 08:52 AM
#23
05-22-2018, 10:13 AM
#24
However, for a lot of applications, the Corvette can be the better choice. The lower cost and wide availability of parts can be an advantage on a race track where the seats are being replaced, interior panels mangled to fit a roll bar and gauges, exterior panels can be mangled to fit cooling and aerodynamic aids, and parts can wear under the high stresses of track use. Any of the LS/LT engines are basically a drop in. It had a hydroformed frame and the transmission joined to the differential.
As a daily driver, the interior trim is primitive, storage is problematic. Steering feel was always a problem until the rack was upgraded in subsequent models.
Would you really want an old Corvette bought 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th hand old as your daily driver?
As mentioned, the FD3S RX-7, JZA80 Supra, the Miata, and the S2000 had very classic looks. They look good today, in some cases over 25 years later. Their engineering was excellent with suspensions and engines that are still sought after. Even the original Z3M has sort of a classic look, although a much more primitive one with a primitive suspension to match.
05-23-2018, 02:29 PM
#25
As a new car buyer in that period, the C5 was at best 'primitive' by comparison. That is a reason the Supra and RX-7 have held their value. They were well designed and unique.
However, for a lot of applications, the Corvette can be the better choice. The lower cost and wide availability of parts can be an advantage on a race track where the seats are being replaced, interior panels mangled to fit a roll bar and gauges, exterior panels can be mangled to fit cooling and aerodynamic aids, and parts can wear under the high stresses of track use. Any of the LS/LT engines are basically a drop in. It had a hydroformed frame and the transmission joined to the differential.
As a daily driver, the interior trim is primitive, storage is problematic. Steering feel was always a problem until the rack was upgraded in subsequent models.
Would you really want an old Corvette bought 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th hand old as your daily driver?
As mentioned, the FD3S RX-7, JZA80 Supra, the Miata, and the S2000 had very classic looks. They look good today, in some cases over 25 years later. Their engineering was excellent with suspensions and engines that are still sought after. Even the original Z3M has sort of a classic look, although a much more primitive one with a primitive suspension to match.
However, for a lot of applications, the Corvette can be the better choice. The lower cost and wide availability of parts can be an advantage on a race track where the seats are being replaced, interior panels mangled to fit a roll bar and gauges, exterior panels can be mangled to fit cooling and aerodynamic aids, and parts can wear under the high stresses of track use. Any of the LS/LT engines are basically a drop in. It had a hydroformed frame and the transmission joined to the differential.
As a daily driver, the interior trim is primitive, storage is problematic. Steering feel was always a problem until the rack was upgraded in subsequent models.
Would you really want an old Corvette bought 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th hand old as your daily driver?
As mentioned, the FD3S RX-7, JZA80 Supra, the Miata, and the S2000 had very classic looks. They look good today, in some cases over 25 years later. Their engineering was excellent with suspensions and engines that are still sought after. Even the original Z3M has sort of a classic look, although a much more primitive one with a primitive suspension to match.
I have owned both an RX7 AND two Supras. I have built dozens (yep plural) of JZ flavored motors. I will NEVER roadrace one again. Its a GT car from a bygone era, the last incarnation of which was designed nearly a decade before the C5. The best roadrace motor toyota ever made is the UZ v8 and swapping one into a supra, turns it into an expensive and feeble C5 copycat.
FWIW the only car ive found that is comparably a better track car than a C5 is an S2000. The sheer number of track hours you can wring out of the drivetrain is phenomenal (i put 250+ hours on track on motor #1, motor #2 is still going), but the price you pay is in aero and suspension development to get the car to not want to kill you. There is also an astonishing amount of JDM brand hype over products that simply cost a lot and under-perform or have no sustaining information at all. Comparatively, the C5 as a competition platform is a solved problem where nearly every facet is a meritocracy with little hype factor.
If you want a project car to look at or take to cars and coffee, swap to your hearts content. If you want a competition car, get the fastest solved problem you can buy and enjoy lapping the guys with expensive engine swaps. Watch out when passing them, they tend to drop puddles.
05-23-2018, 04:56 PM
#26
I have owned both an RX7 AND two Supras. I have built dozens (yep plural) of JZ flavored motors. I will NEVER roadrace one again. Its a GT car from a bygone era, the last incarnation of which was designed nearly a decade before the C5. The best roadrace motor toyota ever made is the UZ v8 and swapping one into a supra, turns it into an expensive and feeble C5 copycat.
05-23-2018, 06:08 PM
#27
This question is about track cars, in the R/C forum so from that perspective the C5 corvette is nearly perfect since its achilles heel is the interior, which you will be thankfully removing much of.
I have owned both an RX7 AND two Supras. I have built dozens (yep plural) of JZ flavored motors. I will NEVER roadrace one again. Its a GT car from a bygone era, the last incarnation of which was designed nearly a decade before the C5. The best roadrace motor toyota ever made is the UZ v8 and swapping one into a supra, turns it into an expensive and feeble C5 copycat.
FWIW the only car ive found that is comparably a better track car than a C5 is an S2000. The sheer number of track hours you can wring out of the drivetrain is phenomenal (i put 250+ hours on track on motor #1, motor #2 is still going), but the price you pay is in aero and suspension development to get the car to not want to kill you. There is also an astonishing amount of JDM brand hype over products that simply cost a lot and under-perform or have no sustaining information at all. Comparatively, the C5 as a competition platform is a solved problem where nearly every facet is a meritocracy with little hype factor.
If you want a project car to look at or take to cars and coffee, swap to your hearts content. If you want a competition car, get the fastest solved problem you can buy and enjoy lapping the guys with expensive engine swaps. Watch out when passing them, they tend to drop puddles.
I have owned both an RX7 AND two Supras. I have built dozens (yep plural) of JZ flavored motors. I will NEVER roadrace one again. Its a GT car from a bygone era, the last incarnation of which was designed nearly a decade before the C5. The best roadrace motor toyota ever made is the UZ v8 and swapping one into a supra, turns it into an expensive and feeble C5 copycat.
FWIW the only car ive found that is comparably a better track car than a C5 is an S2000. The sheer number of track hours you can wring out of the drivetrain is phenomenal (i put 250+ hours on track on motor #1, motor #2 is still going), but the price you pay is in aero and suspension development to get the car to not want to kill you. There is also an astonishing amount of JDM brand hype over products that simply cost a lot and under-perform or have no sustaining information at all. Comparatively, the C5 as a competition platform is a solved problem where nearly every facet is a meritocracy with little hype factor.
If you want a project car to look at or take to cars and coffee, swap to your hearts content. If you want a competition car, get the fastest solved problem you can buy and enjoy lapping the guys with expensive engine swaps. Watch out when passing them, they tend to drop puddles.
2JZ-GTE
As far as I can tell it has never been seriously road raced. There are maybe one or two guys doing track days. There was one on the west coast. It was sold 3-4 years ago and to the best of my knowledge hasn't been raced since. When raced in Japan, Supras first had 4 cylinder motors, then V8s. The rules made these highly modified cars competitive. That chassis is very similar to an S2000, even the tire sizes are similar. I think it is 700# heavier. Because it hasn't been tracked as much, there are many fewer cars, and it has been out of production 16 years (20 years in the US) there aren't as many road racing chassis pieces available.
It is a popular drag racing/street racing motor. As far as I can tell there are two reasons for that: 1) it can take massive amounts of boost; 2) complete 2JE-GTE VVTi engines are available from Japan for not that much money. They go into S2000s, FT86s, and others. The T-56 Magnum is popular transmission, but many are autos and there is a kit to adapt an E90 M3 DCT. There doesn't seem to have been much (much defined as what 4Piston does to K-series heads) done on head prep. Dry sumps aren't that popular. Single turbos, big I/Cs, an intake and an ECU leaves the answer to any power question as: more boost.
I'd be interested to learn more details of your experiences with the 2JZ.
C5 Corvette
I would agree that among old production cars the C5 is a 'relatively' inexpensive track day car. It does need some parts as evidenced by the Spec Corvette shopping list. I talked with a major race Corvette builder about building one. Their view was it was basically a T1/GT2 car and should be build to meet the specs of all three classes. That there would be lots of old pieces that needed to be replaced or reconditioned. While maybe someone with welding skills may put one together for under $25k, they thought it would run in the $40k-$50k range.
Beyond that, it would be a trailered race car at that point. The poster here was looking for a dual purpose car, he specifically stated 'daily driver'. Many here have evolved their track day S2000s to where they can drive to the track, but aren't really daily drivers. It is VERY popular in B/Street SCCA autocrosses, dominating a class once dominated by S2000s. At the 2017 Solo II Nationals, C5 Corvettes won A/street and were 3rd in B/street, with 4 and 5 of the top 10 finishers respectively being C5 Corvettes Prepped and buffed out they are pretty good looking. Not my cup of tea...but not bad.
If the person is willing to tow the car, I have recommended an SCCA Spec Racer Ford. They are under $15k, part of the most popular racing classes in the country, and are real race cars, easy to work on, and small enough and light enough to move around.
Better Than a C5: GTA
What something more like a dedicated track Corvette? Get an SCCA GTA car; it can also be used for track days and NASA. These are perimeter chassis oval track super late models. This is a 2850# car powered by one of a variety of cast iron V8s. LS1s to spec are allowed. Most are allowed 3-stage or 4-stage dry sumps, which are inexpensive for that type of engine. 52% rear weight. 13" wide race tires on 15" rims. Need a BBK? The latest Performance Friction Z94 calipers are $500. Double adjustable Penskes are under $600 each. The rear is quick change. The body is plastic composite which is pretty dent resistant and relatively easy and inexpensive to replace. A complete NEW car could be assembled for ~$30k, with the transmission being one of the major costs, about $5k for a 4-speed dog-gear box with straight cut gears. Beyond that, if a containment seat is used this would be far and away as safe as any car in an SCCA racing class.
Dual Purpose
This was what the poster wants. My recommendation is a 2019 Mustang PP2. A Camaro is an option, but it seems that the Mustang has better roll bar and seat mounting options. The Camaro has a trans and diff cooler, and floating rotors from the factory. But the Mustang should be adequate or easily upgraded, and has better visibility from the driver's seat. Just a more practical car.
A dual-purpose Mustang could be built from a used chassis, but wouldn't be much cheaper when the dust settled.
05-23-2018, 06:22 PM
#28
Community Organizer
OP never to return again ......
05-23-2018, 06:36 PM
#29
So as a previous S2K owner, then EVO IX owner, now considering another FD3S to K24 swap and want some of the S2K guys that track their cars to give some real world weight:whp comparison to see if the car is a worthwhile budget type track/daily build. Thanks in advance!
I think the OP really wants a cars and coffee show car swap that will get tracked 1x a year.
probably... we're not out of the box enough for him, but that's probably because most of us like to spend time driving our cars on track rather than wrenching on a project in a garage all day long.
Now I remember why I left this site and never looked back for 10 years. As well versed as you are, your ideology is lackluster at best. I never cared about 800-1000whp or turboing it. If you think the K series motor is antique the I’d hate to hear what you think about the 30 year old technology F series motors and s2K chassis. To the LSx comment I’ve been there and down that, actually still have it. It’s far more expensive than a K-swap and I still understand the possibilities of the LS platform.
05-23-2018, 07:44 PM
#30
With aftermarket seats, roll bar, harnesses, and brake ducts it is right at $50k or a bit less if there is a dealer discount. MSRP is right around $45k. How much does it cost to buy an S2000, repair 10-15 years of wear and abuse my multiple owners, add wheels, tires, shocks, springs, get vaguely into the same power category, BBK, roll bar, seats, harnesses, etc? And then, which is really the better daily driver? In NJ, the S2000 would be pretty marginal for 1/3rd of the year.