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Insurance and Track Question

 
Old 01-11-2019, 05:31 AM
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So much gray area ........

Define "racing".

Is a HPDE "racing"? I think not but I've seen enough wadded up cars in DE, people think they're racing. Some of them have had track day insurance and some have not.

OP, I know personally the S2000 owner who had a failure on the street the day AFTER his track event. That's a sad story and all he did was tell the truth. He got shafted by esurance.

To answer you question, I've owner my car for 15 years and have tracked it at least once every year. I never told my insurance company nor have I ever bought track day insurance. It's a track only car now but is still registered, licensed and insured. I figure if I ever need to bring someone elses car home in my trailer I "could" drive my car on the street. Even before the S I owned and tracked my street ridden motorcycles, I only ever carried liability on them as I owned them outright.

If I throw my car (or motorcycle) into the weeds, or a wall, while on track, that's on me 100%.

Last edited by freq; 01-11-2019 at 05:57 AM.
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Old 01-11-2019, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ThisIsRace View Post
Thanks for the insight, glad to know that you've been down this road with them. From what I know I was dealing with them directly, I called the number on my existing policy. The agent I spoke to said that its specifically in NY that they can't cover cars that are going to be tracked which is why the first agent I spoke to did not know about it (I'm assuming its not even a question in most states from the other replies).

I do see the perspective of the insurance company though, there are too many people who would do something stupid and then try to get it covered by saying it happened in front of their home or something. Anyways, that was my plan exactly, track insurance for track day. Who is your new provider? Hagerty is good but I think a bit expensive for my coverage.

Thanks again for the reply
I have State Farm and have home and my other car insured through them. Hagerty was priced the same for the S2000, but I’d have lost the discounts I have for insuring everything else through my regular provider
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Old 01-11-2019, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidNJ View Post
Racing cars have accidents. There has been a lot of insurance fraud with this, both staged accidents or claiming race damage as part of a legitimate street collision or comprehensive claim. They usually won't write coverage for cars in high-speed events. Sometimes 'competitive' events. That last would include autocrosses, but it may be a grey area since the number of claims is small. But there have been autocross accidents where the cars hit objects or even each other. The increased wear and tear on race/track cars increases the chances for accidents from component damage. That is a reason most auto warranties don't cover cars that are tracked. Not an issue here since the youngest S2000 is out of even extended warranties now.

I believe there are firms that insure antique race cars and there is track day insurance. Haggerty is a special case because of the way they write their classic car insurance.

My wife's '38 Buick is written by Haggerty. I need to move my Supra there. The S2000 is under Liberty Mutual and I wouldn't make a claim from an autocross related event. The issue would be if the autocross-related accident included an injury or property damage to someone else (spectator, another competitor) and they made the claim against my insurance.
I'm with you completely, thanks for the info. I don't know how I feel about Hagerty for my Supra (stock 98 Turbo), they don't offer policies based on mileage (at least in NY). My policy is $1600 and I literally drive the car MAYBE 150 miles/year. Adding the S2k was only $300 for the year so that's a plus, my regular auto insurance carrier wanted just over $1000 for the same coverage. Good angle, didn't think about if someone else somehow gets hurt. Thanks for the info, keep me posted on what happens when you insure your Supra.

Originally Posted by freq View Post
So much gray area ........

Define "racing".

Is a HPDE "racing"? I think not but I've seen enough wadded up cars in DE, people think they're racing. Some of them have had track day insurance and some have not.

OP, I know personally the S2000 owner who had a failure on the street the day AFTER his track event. That's a sad story and all he did was tell the truth. He got shafted by esurance.

To answer you question, I've owner my car for 15 years and have tracked it at least once every year. I never told my insurance company nor have I ever bought track day insurance. It's a track only car now but is still registered, licensed and insured. I figure if I ever need to bring someone elses car home in my trailer I "could" drive my car on the street. Even before the S I owned and tracked my street ridden motorcycles, I only ever carried liability on them as I owned them outright.

If I throw my car (or motorcycle) into the weeds, or a wall, while on track, that's on me 100%.
That's really an insane story, good to know for everyone else going forward if anything like that should happen. And I couldn't agree more, if something happens at a track its on the owner, plain and simple. Its the fraud aspect that I'm sure they're afraid of. Someone wrecking the car at a track, dragging it home, and then calling the insurance company. Isn't a large percentage of insurance premium due to fraud or something like that?

Originally Posted by Chuck S View Post
State laws govern much of this. Here in Virginia, for example, I'm not required to have any liability (or other) insurance on my cars. None. $500 is cheaper than liability insurance. Insurance is a bet. You're betting the insurance company you're going to have a claim.

-- Chuck
Chuck, that's interesting to know, funny how the state laws are all so different! Thanks for the info

Thanks to everyone for all of the input, I really appreciate it!!
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Old 01-11-2019, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by bdo View Post
That's a bit extreme! I've heard paranoia of such things but never heard a first hand account of it actually happening. Did you have a claim or something that prompted this? I'd think they have better things to do.
After 8 years of regular coverage on the S2000 (plus being a customer my entire driving life, having our house, umbrella, and life insurance through them, and 7 years since our last family claim of any kind), I requested to change the S2000 to a low-mileage agreed-upon value policy. I explained that my car was one of less than 2000 produced in its year and color, was hand-built, signed by the designer in person, and that values of the model were climbing due to increased interest in the collectors Japanese-sports-car market. They denied the change and my agent called a few weeks later and said the underwriters had called her and told her they were dropping me entirely after they found a pic of the car on track. Apparently they decided a sports car owner requesting an agreed-upon value policy was enough of a red flag to go digging for something they didn't like. Of course I know my policy never covered me on track and I never would have made a claim related to the track, but they didn't care. In the agents words, "We only insure regular, drive-to-work cars."
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Old 01-11-2019, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by thomsbrain View Post
After 8 years of regular coverage on the S2000 (plus being a customer my entire driving life, having our house, umbrella, and life insurance through them, and 7 years since our last family claim of any kind), I requested to change the S2000 to a low-mileage agreed-upon value policy. I explained that my car was one of less than 2000 produced in its year and color, was hand-built, signed by the designer in person, and that values of the model were climbing due to increased interest in the collectors Japanese-sports-car market. They denied the change and my agent called a few weeks later and said the underwriters had called her and told her they were dropping me entirely after they found a pic of the car on track. Apparently they decided a sports car owner requesting an agreed-upon value policy was enough of a red flag to go digging for something they didn't like. Of course I know my policy never covered me on track and I never would have made a claim related to the track, but they didn't care. In the agents words, "We only insure regular, drive-to-work cars."
Bunch of hacks.
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Old 01-11-2019, 10:57 AM
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Here's a link to just how shitty and shady insurance companies can be when it come to tracking a vehicle.

TL;DR
S2000 owner tracks his car and has a mechanical failure the following morning on his drive back home. e-surance bends him over.

https://www.s2ki.com/forums/new-york...mpany-1103942/
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Old 01-24-2019, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by freq View Post
Here's a link to just how shitty and shady insurance companies can be when it come to tracking a vehicle.

TL;DR
S2000 owner tracks his car and has a mechanical failure the following morning on his drive back home. e-surance bends him over.

https://www.s2ki.com/forums/new-york...mpany-1103942/
Thats totally absurd, lesson learned for the rest of us

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Old 01-24-2019, 12:05 PM
  #18  
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Update:

Aboslutely nothing against Hagerty but I think the S2000 community should know about this.
Japanese "collector" type cars really aren't the niche of Hagerty according to the reps I spoke to, the Supra isn't even on their radar at all.

I recently switched my policy to Grundy.
With them you can get a policy for the approximate amount of miles you will drive for the year (they claim they do not hold you to it and don't check the odometer)
This was great for me because I was paying WAY too much for my Supra that I don't drive.
I did a little comparison, coverage and deductible are the same, agreed values are higher with Grundy.
I'm 29, never been in an accident, no moving violations
1998 Toyota Supra Turbo and 2001 Honda S2000
Here's a breakdown:

Hagerty:
Agreed Value: ($40,000 Supra + $15,000 S2000) = $55,000
Premium: $1717
Premium/Value: 3.12%

Grundy:
Agreed Value: ($48,000 Supra + $18,000 S2000) = $66,000
Premium: $673.00
Premium/Value: 1.02%

This is a huge difference to me, I'm saving $1044 and have the same coverage and better agreed values!

Hope this helps anyone looking to get less expensive insurance

If there's something I'm missing, please let me know!

Thanks to everyone for the input
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by freq View Post
Here's a link to just how shitty and shady insurance companies can be when it come to tracking a vehicle.

TL;DR
S2000 owner tracks his car and has a mechanical failure the following morning on his drive back home. e-surance bends him over.

https://www.s2ki.com/forums/new-york...mpany-1103942/
The whole thing didn't make sense to me.

When you are in an accident, get the car to your body shop. If you don't have on, many dealers do or have a local shop they work with. Dealers often have to make repairs to cars that will then sell as new so the shops have to be reasonable.

Each body shop has one or more towing services they work with. You need to use one of those towing services. Not only do they have the keys to the body shop lot, but they won't hijack the car. It is common for a tow truck to send cars to body shops that pay them for sending the car over. Not only can they try and get the owner to use them, but they can also charge storage if they don't. Note, that may entail a big towing fee. If the car is a long way from home, you can go back with a rented auto trailer. You may have to pay a couple of days of storage.

Note that body shops are in the business of making money, not fixing cars. Reputable ones will do both. Others will do as little as necessary to get the adjuster to approve the work. I've seen some real repair disasters...where bent frames were glossed over to get it out the door, but the car would never handle and had water leaks.

The adjuster will always go to the body shop. They are visiting the shops regularly...your's is not the only car they have. The adjusters may be from the insurer or a third party claims processor, depending on where and what shop is involved. Always have the adjuster review the car with the body shop that will do the work. It isn't your job or expertise to analyze crash damage, its there's. They already have credibility with the adjuster, or should. Those that don't (hint, if they won't charge you the deductible it is likely they don't) won't be able to get the claim processed efficiently.

You own your car. The shop its is towed to and the towing company that moved it may have a mechanic's lien for towing and/or storage. Settle and get the car back. Or let your body shop settle and get the car back.

Esurance, the company in this case, is owned by Allstate. All companies have consumer complaint/consumer advocate staff. Usually, the CEO has a unit in their office. The company can request the accident report. If another car is at fault, they will try to collect on the other car's insurance or have you file your claim with the other car's insurance (note: cars, not their drivers, are insured). If your car damaged other property, your insurer is libel. In this case, the owner may have been liable for damage to the guardrail.

Asking for more than the police report implies they are investigating fraud. Fraud can have civil and criminal penalties. That is lawyer time.

I don't know what their policy T&C are. It virtually certainly excluded an accident on a race track, whether a competitive event or not. Does it exclude ever running the car in a race track event? I doubt it, but possible. The claim would be the failure occurred because of stresses on the race track or because of customer modifications to the car. If the owner didn't try to hide the track use that shouldn't be a problem.
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Old 01-25-2019, 11:21 AM
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For a long time, I removed the liability coverage on my S during the winter, maintaining only comprehensive. Several years ago, I spoke to Hagerty about coverage for the S and ultimately insured the '04 S2000, the '58 MGA race car and the '57 Volvo PV444. "Classic vehicle" insurance, stated value for the cars, $500,000 liability. Total cost in 2018 was $733.00. I am required to maintain a "regular use vehicle" that I insure elsewhere. Cars garaged in Connecticut.

My policy has a specific rider called "Competition Exclusion - Connecticut" The policy does not cover the car while it is at a track being prepared for racing or while racing except if I'm there as a spectator or while on the car is on display. It specifically does not cover "performance driving" or rallies for events where driving is expected to be in excess of the legal speed limit. . Most importantly for my purposes, it does not cover the car for "hydraulic bouncing competitions" "stereo thumping competitions" (not that I know what these are) or tractor pulling type competitions. Drifting isn't mentioned.

I've purchased the separate Hagerty Track Day insurance a few times for HPDE events. If I recall correctly, it provided coverage for a few items not covered by the Lockton track day policy. It covered damage to track facilities (i.e., the blue Aarmco at the Glen) and "pollution coverage", which I believe covers the cleanup when car blows an oil line.

I've heard that J.C. Taylor might have a more liberal classic car policy, but I wouldn't expect any track day coverage under any standard policy.

And as far as I know, coverage for damage occurring during races for the MGA is simply not available. We are on our own out there.



Oh, on another note: My humble advice to those of you owning less than $500,000 in uninsured / underinsured motorist coverage (assuming you can get it in your state). Bump up your coverage to the max possible! Nobody has adequate liability insurance these days. Millions of people are driving around without insurance or with only the absolute minimum coverage to get a license or register their car. Without your own uninsured/underinsured insurance coverage, you will be left hanging if one of these people injures you in a crash.
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