NASA TTC Buildup
03-10-2008, 09:46 AM
#101
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: tempe, arizona
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Before I give all the updates on the track results from yesterday, I'm going to post the final details from the prep on Friday/Saturday so everything is in order. Yeah I know, picky picky, but it'll be quick and I'll get to the track details soon.
Friday night I had a list of things to do. *Thank God* for all the work I got done on Wednesday, because I originally planned on doing it Friday night, with all this stuff. I would have been up till 5-6am doing all the brake and diff work if I didn't do it earlier in the week.
First thing I did was assemble the wing. As I said earlier, a wing that is no higher than 13" gets 2 points, higher than 13" is worth 5 points. I had some wing stand "extensions" made to raise it up higher than the original 9" overall height. With the new extensions it was 12.8", so right at the limit, but it looked really dumb.. not only that, but with the way the stands were made, the angle was really dramatic and the base of the stands was pretty far forward of the actual wing itself, which had me concerned. I guess what should I expect for a $140 generic wing..
Installing the stands to the wing
Marking the trunk for the mounts..
Here are the extensions that were made. They're slotted as well for more adjustability.
And here is the whole setup, on the car taped in place for measurement. You can see the angle of the stands...
Needless to say, I scrapped that idea and decided to run the wing at a lower height since it was more stable. I figured if I needed more help from the wing once I was at the track, I could always reconfigure and raise it up higher.
--------------------------
I made some magnetic numbers a few weeks ago and I had to paint those black
--------------------------
All four fenders had to be rolled to fit the Enkei wheels. For the time being I just rolled the inner lip flat against the inside of the fender; I didn't do any flaring.
First I removed the rubber piece
Then hooked up the roller and started bending sheet metal!
On the front I trimmed the fender liner and bent the tabs up out of the way.
In my many days of fender rolling, I have never seen paint chip and fall off like this car's. I couldn't believe how much chipping there was...
----------------------------
Finally, I mounted the front lip. It's a knock-off lip so it didn't fit perfect, but I got it on there and was mounted securely.
--------------------------
Around 1-2am on Saturday everything was finished up. Later that day I washed the car and it was ready to go. Yes, I noticed the wheels were on backwards, so I flipped them around as well. It's good to know that a 245 on a 17x9 Enkei will fit on the front though!
If you look closely, you can see the black soot that covers the entire side of the car. That's from *2 days* of street driving with Hawk Blue pads.
Friday night I had a list of things to do. *Thank God* for all the work I got done on Wednesday, because I originally planned on doing it Friday night, with all this stuff. I would have been up till 5-6am doing all the brake and diff work if I didn't do it earlier in the week.
First thing I did was assemble the wing. As I said earlier, a wing that is no higher than 13" gets 2 points, higher than 13" is worth 5 points. I had some wing stand "extensions" made to raise it up higher than the original 9" overall height. With the new extensions it was 12.8", so right at the limit, but it looked really dumb.. not only that, but with the way the stands were made, the angle was really dramatic and the base of the stands was pretty far forward of the actual wing itself, which had me concerned. I guess what should I expect for a $140 generic wing..
Installing the stands to the wing
Marking the trunk for the mounts..
Here are the extensions that were made. They're slotted as well for more adjustability.
And here is the whole setup, on the car taped in place for measurement. You can see the angle of the stands...
Needless to say, I scrapped that idea and decided to run the wing at a lower height since it was more stable. I figured if I needed more help from the wing once I was at the track, I could always reconfigure and raise it up higher.
--------------------------
I made some magnetic numbers a few weeks ago and I had to paint those black
--------------------------
All four fenders had to be rolled to fit the Enkei wheels. For the time being I just rolled the inner lip flat against the inside of the fender; I didn't do any flaring.
First I removed the rubber piece
Then hooked up the roller and started bending sheet metal!
On the front I trimmed the fender liner and bent the tabs up out of the way.
In my many days of fender rolling, I have never seen paint chip and fall off like this car's. I couldn't believe how much chipping there was...
----------------------------
Finally, I mounted the front lip. It's a knock-off lip so it didn't fit perfect, but I got it on there and was mounted securely.
--------------------------
Around 1-2am on Saturday everything was finished up. Later that day I washed the car and it was ready to go. Yes, I noticed the wheels were on backwards, so I flipped them around as well. It's good to know that a 245 on a 17x9 Enkei will fit on the front though!
If you look closely, you can see the black soot that covers the entire side of the car. That's from *2 days* of street driving with Hawk Blue pads.
03-10-2008, 10:33 AM
#102
Looking good. Now I'm waiting on the results from the weekend. 
03-10-2008, 11:04 AM
#103
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Arlington, Virginia
Posts: 21,401
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by phoenixR34,Mar 10 2008, 01:46 PM
In my many days of fender rolling, I have never seen paint chip and fall off like this car's. I couldn't believe how much chipping there was...
did you heat up the paint w/ a heat gun?
03-10-2008, 11:53 AM
#104
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: tempe, arizona
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, so this weekend. After the thrash-fests the previous few days, I really didn't have any concerns other than the fender clearance around the tires, and how long it would take me to get used to the car. PIR tends to get really greasy after lunch or when the temps are above 80-85 ambient, so I knew I had to get up to speed really quick.
These pics give you an idea of the corner numbers and what the track actually looks like in real life. Don't mind all the cars in the infield - during NASCAR weekend our track turns into a parking lot. In the second picture you can see the cars in NASCAR oval 3-4, or what is turn 10 for the roadcourse. You can see in the infield carousel (turns 5-7) as well.
The first session out on track, I did 1/2 warmup lap and decided to pull in and see how the tire situation was. The rear clearance looked really close, but as it turned out, wasn't rubbing on the tires. In that 1/2 warmup lap, I couldn't believe how grippy the Hoosiers were with no scrub or warmup time. Likewise, the S2000 felt really good as well.. lots of mechanical grip and excellent brakes. Knowing that, and knowing the track really well, I jumped out of the pits, drove through turns 3-7 as fast as possible to feel out the car, and it was on.
Crossing the finish line for my very first lap, not my first hot lap, my very first full lap ever, was a 1:11.6. The big question about PIR is how well the car performs in turn 10 and 1; most importantly, turn 10, as it's the longest and leads onto the front straight. On my first lap I didn't lift from turn 9, all the way into the braking zone before turn 1. I've driven enough genuinely fast cars around PIR, that it didn't take long (about the first 100 feet entering turn 10) to realize I could go flat. "Going flat" is always the question, and where 99% of the people who are slow around PIR, lose time.
Phoenix International Raceway, Turn 3
Turn 10 is also the start of the next lap, obviously, as it leads onto the start/finish straight. From there it's just a matter of how ballsy you can take the transition off the oval into turn 1. Turns 2-9 are no brainers, you just go as hard as you can. Through my first session of 5-7 laps, I was referencing my speed over "the bump" coming off the oval into turn 1. Indicated speed was 105-107mph, which surely isn't accurate given I have the short gears.
FWIW, I didn't install the "yellow box" to correct the speedo after the gear installation, and really couldn't tell the difference. I was told that the steering feel would change or be delayed, but I honestly couldn't tell a difference.
The A6 Hoosiers worked great, but they only were really awesome for the first 2-3 laps of each session. As I said, PIR gets greasy when the sun has been out for a few hours. Over the last 6-7 years of running PIR, my fastest times have *always* been in the 1st or 2nd session of the day, before lunch. Knowing that, I had to make the first 2-3 laps of session #2 count. That's what it has come to - all this work, time and money, just for the first 2-3 laps of one session at a certain time of day.
Starting session #2, we gridded up in order of fastest to slowest, then used a pace car to bunch everyone up. The track goes green at turn 9, so everyone has a flying start across the start/finish line. Since everyone is gridded by lap time, theoretically everyone should have good spacing and traffic-free laps for the first 5-10 minutes. That's how it has *always* worked with the TT sessions at PIR, and that's the only way to get clean laps with 30+ cars on a 1.5 mile track. The system works well, usually.
On our second pace lap, the pace car pulls off in turn 9 and people start going hot. Imagine a line of cars between turn 7 and 9, one by one accelerating out of 9 to get a flying start around 10 and onto the straight. I sat back and gave 6-7 car lengths between me and the Lotus Elise that was on front of me. The Elise is a fellow TTC competitor, running within 0.1 of me in the first session. On Saturday the Elise got within 0.05 of the TTC lap record.
I cross the start finish and head into my first lap. I hit all the corners fine and all is well. As I exit turn 7, I see an orange Porsche GT3RS sitting outside of turn 9 on the NASCAR oval (to the left of that yellow #5 box). Basically what happened was he entered turn 1 for his hot lap, overshot and went through the grass. He drove around the NASCAR oval and was sitting outside of turn 9 waiting to rejoin the group... pretty typical scenario for a crappy driver in a fast car. As I exit 7, I see the Porsche and immediately think "He better not even think about it!!", figuring he'd be a dumbass and rejoin the track right in front of me and ruin my lap.
Sure enough, as the Lotus goes around 9 (200 yards in front of me) and heads onto the oval, the 911 jumps forward onto the oval as well. I go around 9 and see the Porsche 100 yards in front of me. Bottom line, if he doesn't slow down in the oval (turn 10), I'm good. Even if he slows, as long as I get a driving line, I'm still good. But no, he hits turn 10, slows down to 80mph or so (I'm doing 90-95) and drives dead center. I can't take a low line, so I go high up into the marbles, thus ruining the lap I'm on.. and ruining the next lap, as I exit turn 10, 5-10mph slower than normal. I nearly have a heart attack.. I wanted to run that Porsche A-hole off the road I was so pissed. I do a couple more laps, but by the beginning of the 3rd lap I start catching some of the TTE cars and have to deal with traffic. Session #2 is a waste.
In the garage at PIR with the number magnets on the car.. which by the way, didn't fall off! Craft store quality magnetic material is pretty good afterall!
Session 3 was the "small bore" group. Since we have over 30 TT cars, TT is a 5-run session group for the day. The first two sessions are just normal TT sessions, gridded by time. Session 3 is the Big Bore session, where just classes TTR-TTA run. Point is to have less cars on track so everyone can get clean laps. Small Bore, or my Session #3 (TT session 4 technically) is SmallBore, and is for all TTB-TTF cars. Only ten people showed up for SmallBore. In the 2-3 laps I did in Session 2, I managed to work my entry speed in turn 1 up from 105mph, to 113-14mph. I still think there is more left, but it's a ballsy corner. I've pretty much been sideways over the transition in 1 in every car I've owned, trying to find the limit. Since 99% of the accidents at PIR happen over the transition into 1, I was taking it slower than normal.
That difference was good for a 1:10.94, which stood as my best time for the day. The car felt much different on the greasy track. There was a big difference in grip in turn 10 and 1, which is the norm for a hot afternoon in Phoenix. Overall, not a bad first time out, but I was really expecting to be a second or so faster. My plan is to go back at the next event in May and use what I learned in sessions 3-4, in the early morning sessions. If that doesn't work, then it's time to throw more money at it!
As I said earlier, I'm not sure why I picked the 225/245 tire setup. When I originally bought the car, I had every intention of running 255s on all four corners.. or 245s. For some reason it made sense that day, so I ended up running staggered. In all honesty the car felt perfectly balanced for the first 3-4 laps until the tires got too hot. After that there was some mild understeer, but it rotated nicely by tapping the brakes or trailbraking late into corners. I really hate to mess with the setup since it feels so good right now, but I might have to.
The KSport shocks felt *awesome*. With the stiffer springs (change from 10/7kg to 12/10kg) the shocks felt slightly underdamped on the softest rebound setting. With the rebound on the highest setting, they felt amazing.. the car transitioned excellent, ride quality was great, body movement was in check.. Honestly they have superior performance to the PSS9s by far, with the same ride quality. I think my estimations of the 16/14kg final setup is about right, as there was just a tad too much roll. Given the ride quality is really good, i don't think it'll be a problem to run that stiff. I just don't know if I'll need to revalve the shocks to go with stiffer springs. But yeah,
for the KSport coilovers.
Turn 5
Brakes were awesome as expected. The biggest problem I had was with the stock seat and belt. I left-foot brake pretty much all the time. Having one foot on the gas and the other on the brake with really no support in the seat, messed me up a lot. I couldn't focus on braking and turning because I was trying to figure out how to stay put.. I was using my foot to brake *and* hold me in place.. I wasn't being smooth. A roll bar, harness and seat are definitely must-do items for the next event.
So there you have it. First event out, totally guessing on setup and having never driven the S2000 before, getting within 0.5 of the record. I don't imagine it will take more than another 1-2 events to figure out how to hit that time, then eventually consistently blow it out of the water. Since Greg set the 1:10.48 in 2005, he's only run a TT lap under 1:11, once.
These pics give you an idea of the corner numbers and what the track actually looks like in real life. Don't mind all the cars in the infield - during NASCAR weekend our track turns into a parking lot. In the second picture you can see the cars in NASCAR oval 3-4, or what is turn 10 for the roadcourse. You can see in the infield carousel (turns 5-7) as well.
The first session out on track, I did 1/2 warmup lap and decided to pull in and see how the tire situation was. The rear clearance looked really close, but as it turned out, wasn't rubbing on the tires. In that 1/2 warmup lap, I couldn't believe how grippy the Hoosiers were with no scrub or warmup time. Likewise, the S2000 felt really good as well.. lots of mechanical grip and excellent brakes. Knowing that, and knowing the track really well, I jumped out of the pits, drove through turns 3-7 as fast as possible to feel out the car, and it was on.
Crossing the finish line for my very first lap, not my first hot lap, my very first full lap ever, was a 1:11.6. The big question about PIR is how well the car performs in turn 10 and 1; most importantly, turn 10, as it's the longest and leads onto the front straight. On my first lap I didn't lift from turn 9, all the way into the braking zone before turn 1. I've driven enough genuinely fast cars around PIR, that it didn't take long (about the first 100 feet entering turn 10) to realize I could go flat. "Going flat" is always the question, and where 99% of the people who are slow around PIR, lose time.
Phoenix International Raceway, Turn 3
Turn 10 is also the start of the next lap, obviously, as it leads onto the start/finish straight. From there it's just a matter of how ballsy you can take the transition off the oval into turn 1. Turns 2-9 are no brainers, you just go as hard as you can. Through my first session of 5-7 laps, I was referencing my speed over "the bump" coming off the oval into turn 1. Indicated speed was 105-107mph, which surely isn't accurate given I have the short gears.
FWIW, I didn't install the "yellow box" to correct the speedo after the gear installation, and really couldn't tell the difference. I was told that the steering feel would change or be delayed, but I honestly couldn't tell a difference.
The A6 Hoosiers worked great, but they only were really awesome for the first 2-3 laps of each session. As I said, PIR gets greasy when the sun has been out for a few hours. Over the last 6-7 years of running PIR, my fastest times have *always* been in the 1st or 2nd session of the day, before lunch. Knowing that, I had to make the first 2-3 laps of session #2 count. That's what it has come to - all this work, time and money, just for the first 2-3 laps of one session at a certain time of day.
Starting session #2, we gridded up in order of fastest to slowest, then used a pace car to bunch everyone up. The track goes green at turn 9, so everyone has a flying start across the start/finish line. Since everyone is gridded by lap time, theoretically everyone should have good spacing and traffic-free laps for the first 5-10 minutes. That's how it has *always* worked with the TT sessions at PIR, and that's the only way to get clean laps with 30+ cars on a 1.5 mile track. The system works well, usually.
On our second pace lap, the pace car pulls off in turn 9 and people start going hot. Imagine a line of cars between turn 7 and 9, one by one accelerating out of 9 to get a flying start around 10 and onto the straight. I sat back and gave 6-7 car lengths between me and the Lotus Elise that was on front of me. The Elise is a fellow TTC competitor, running within 0.1 of me in the first session. On Saturday the Elise got within 0.05 of the TTC lap record.
I cross the start finish and head into my first lap. I hit all the corners fine and all is well. As I exit turn 7, I see an orange Porsche GT3RS sitting outside of turn 9 on the NASCAR oval (to the left of that yellow #5 box). Basically what happened was he entered turn 1 for his hot lap, overshot and went through the grass. He drove around the NASCAR oval and was sitting outside of turn 9 waiting to rejoin the group... pretty typical scenario for a crappy driver in a fast car. As I exit 7, I see the Porsche and immediately think "He better not even think about it!!", figuring he'd be a dumbass and rejoin the track right in front of me and ruin my lap.
Sure enough, as the Lotus goes around 9 (200 yards in front of me) and heads onto the oval, the 911 jumps forward onto the oval as well. I go around 9 and see the Porsche 100 yards in front of me. Bottom line, if he doesn't slow down in the oval (turn 10), I'm good. Even if he slows, as long as I get a driving line, I'm still good. But no, he hits turn 10, slows down to 80mph or so (I'm doing 90-95) and drives dead center. I can't take a low line, so I go high up into the marbles, thus ruining the lap I'm on.. and ruining the next lap, as I exit turn 10, 5-10mph slower than normal. I nearly have a heart attack.. I wanted to run that Porsche A-hole off the road I was so pissed. I do a couple more laps, but by the beginning of the 3rd lap I start catching some of the TTE cars and have to deal with traffic. Session #2 is a waste.
In the garage at PIR with the number magnets on the car.. which by the way, didn't fall off! Craft store quality magnetic material is pretty good afterall!
Session 3 was the "small bore" group. Since we have over 30 TT cars, TT is a 5-run session group for the day. The first two sessions are just normal TT sessions, gridded by time. Session 3 is the Big Bore session, where just classes TTR-TTA run. Point is to have less cars on track so everyone can get clean laps. Small Bore, or my Session #3 (TT session 4 technically) is SmallBore, and is for all TTB-TTF cars. Only ten people showed up for SmallBore. In the 2-3 laps I did in Session 2, I managed to work my entry speed in turn 1 up from 105mph, to 113-14mph. I still think there is more left, but it's a ballsy corner. I've pretty much been sideways over the transition in 1 in every car I've owned, trying to find the limit. Since 99% of the accidents at PIR happen over the transition into 1, I was taking it slower than normal.
That difference was good for a 1:10.94, which stood as my best time for the day. The car felt much different on the greasy track. There was a big difference in grip in turn 10 and 1, which is the norm for a hot afternoon in Phoenix. Overall, not a bad first time out, but I was really expecting to be a second or so faster. My plan is to go back at the next event in May and use what I learned in sessions 3-4, in the early morning sessions. If that doesn't work, then it's time to throw more money at it!
As I said earlier, I'm not sure why I picked the 225/245 tire setup. When I originally bought the car, I had every intention of running 255s on all four corners.. or 245s. For some reason it made sense that day, so I ended up running staggered. In all honesty the car felt perfectly balanced for the first 3-4 laps until the tires got too hot. After that there was some mild understeer, but it rotated nicely by tapping the brakes or trailbraking late into corners. I really hate to mess with the setup since it feels so good right now, but I might have to.
The KSport shocks felt *awesome*. With the stiffer springs (change from 10/7kg to 12/10kg) the shocks felt slightly underdamped on the softest rebound setting. With the rebound on the highest setting, they felt amazing.. the car transitioned excellent, ride quality was great, body movement was in check.. Honestly they have superior performance to the PSS9s by far, with the same ride quality. I think my estimations of the 16/14kg final setup is about right, as there was just a tad too much roll. Given the ride quality is really good, i don't think it'll be a problem to run that stiff. I just don't know if I'll need to revalve the shocks to go with stiffer springs. But yeah,
for the KSport coilovers.Turn 5
Brakes were awesome as expected. The biggest problem I had was with the stock seat and belt. I left-foot brake pretty much all the time. Having one foot on the gas and the other on the brake with really no support in the seat, messed me up a lot. I couldn't focus on braking and turning because I was trying to figure out how to stay put.. I was using my foot to brake *and* hold me in place.. I wasn't being smooth. A roll bar, harness and seat are definitely must-do items for the next event.
So there you have it. First event out, totally guessing on setup and having never driven the S2000 before, getting within 0.5 of the record. I don't imagine it will take more than another 1-2 events to figure out how to hit that time, then eventually consistently blow it out of the water. Since Greg set the 1:10.48 in 2005, he's only run a TT lap under 1:11, once.
03-10-2008, 12:13 PM
#107
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: OMAHA
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1:10.94 looks pretty good, it is close to greg greenbaum track record from 2005 which was 1:10.48. by the way he is the one that has won the last 2 nasa ttc nationals at mid-ohio
03-10-2008, 12:18 PM
#108
Great results and congrats on doing so well.
You mention some understeer as the car got greasy. Did you have any oversteer issues? Do you think a simple change to wider front tires will allow you to carry more speed or is the car still somewhat tail happy?
You mention some understeer as the car got greasy. Did you have any oversteer issues? Do you think a simple change to wider front tires will allow you to carry more speed or is the car still somewhat tail happy?
03-10-2008, 12:29 PM
#109
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: tempe, arizona
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by JonBoy,Mar 10 2008, 12:18 PM
Great results and congrats on doing so well.
You mention some understeer as the car got greasy. Did you have any oversteer issues? Do you think a simple change to wider front tires will allow you to carry more speed or is the car still somewhat tail happy?
You mention some understeer as the car got greasy. Did you have any oversteer issues? Do you think a simple change to wider front tires will allow you to carry more speed or is the car still somewhat tail happy?
