New S2000 Challenge CLASSIFICATION for 2003
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From: Los Angeles
Ok, below we have the standing version of the S2000 Challenge classification schedule for 2003. Let me know what you think of the new system:
S2000 Challenge Series Classification
No changes are allowed to a car unless they are listed below. If a component or other modification is listed below, any type (or size) of that component is allowed, unless otherwise noted (ie. "sway bar" means adjustable or non-adjustable allowed).
If you have a question about any modification, please contact Aaron (mailto:aaron@speedventures.net).
This classification system is subject to change because people always find sneaky little loop holes.
STOCK
Tires: up to 275 width rear tire, 120+ treadwear
Stock wheels only
Alignment
S2000 Challenge Series Classification
No changes are allowed to a car unless they are listed below. If a component or other modification is listed below, any type (or size) of that component is allowed, unless otherwise noted (ie. "sway bar" means adjustable or non-adjustable allowed).
If you have a question about any modification, please contact Aaron (mailto:aaron@speedventures.net).
This classification system is subject to change because people always find sneaky little loop holes.
STOCK
Tires: up to 275 width rear tire, 120+ treadwear
Stock wheels only
Alignment
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From: H.B.- Center of Universe
I'll do the first question.
In MOD-R, it seems you can do Shocks OR Springs, but not both? Since most people will probably do shocks, and since springs are relatively inexpensive, why not both, and just say that monoballed suspension kicks you up in to Production class?
That way by using shocks and springs, the MOD-R guys can also have a chance at chasing down the faster non-S2000 cars at events.
Other than that, rules look good to me.
-Doug
In MOD-R, it seems you can do Shocks OR Springs, but not both? Since most people will probably do shocks, and since springs are relatively inexpensive, why not both, and just say that monoballed suspension kicks you up in to Production class?
That way by using shocks and springs, the MOD-R guys can also have a chance at chasing down the faster non-S2000 cars at events.
Other than that, rules look good to me.
-Doug
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From: Davie, FL
I see that you're allowing weight reduction now. Any suggestions for removing weight in an otherwise street-driven car? Since I live in S. Florida I obviously don't want to remove the A/C!
As an alternative, how about assessing negative points to those of us that have added weight to the car? In the interest of convenience and safety I'll be running with a trailer hitch (+15 lbs) and this heavy-ass roll bar made by some guy out west
(+30 lbs?). That would eliminate the points for my cat-back exhaust and front swaybar.
I agree with Doug, it's odd that shock and spring replacement is not allowed in Mod or Mod-R. What's the rationale behind that? I bet many people do both at the same time.
How many cars are set up to follow autocross stock rules (like mine)? Since many of the upgrades in Modified are not allowed, would it be worthwhile to have a class for us? Be nice, Doug ...
.
Looking forward to participating in your new east coast events!
As an alternative, how about assessing negative points to those of us that have added weight to the car? In the interest of convenience and safety I'll be running with a trailer hitch (+15 lbs) and this heavy-ass roll bar made by some guy out west
(+30 lbs?). That would eliminate the points for my cat-back exhaust and front swaybar.I agree with Doug, it's odd that shock and spring replacement is not allowed in Mod or Mod-R. What's the rationale behind that? I bet many people do both at the same time.
How many cars are set up to follow autocross stock rules (like mine)? Since many of the upgrades in Modified are not allowed, would it be worthwhile to have a class for us? Be nice, Doug ...
.Looking forward to participating in your new east coast events!
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From: Chicago
Josh, that's kind of where Mod-R came from, allowing shocks independently, so the Solo guys would have a place to play. I think Production should be for the shock/spring guys, and unlimited for the super-trick suspensions.
I think the classing looks good, other than spherical metallic bushings/rod-ends should be specifically disallowed in the production class, and automatically bumped to unlimited.
Then Doug can own a new class (production) for next year... that is unless I show up!
I think the classing looks good, other than spherical metallic bushings/rod-ends should be specifically disallowed in the production class, and automatically bumped to unlimited.
Then Doug can own a new class (production) for next year... that is unless I show up!
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From: Los Angeles
In response to what has been said so far: the classification system is designed to reflect the cars that are actually out there and which we expect to see next year at tracks nationwide based on modification trends we see happening.
Jason is right that the whole weird shock/spring split we see in the system for '02 was designed to let autocrossers run with their autocross setup. Of course it didn't really matter as Jason Keeney only showed up at one event (#@$!&%) and Jason Rhoades returned his car to stock. I'm not aware of any other autocrossers with nice shocks attending in the West, pardon me if I've forgotten you.
So, the question for everyone else is: what are we likely to encounter as the S2000 Challenge spreads nationwide? How many autocrossers are going to show up? If we're going to see them consistently, even in small doses, I vote for keeping the shock/spring split as it is. Doug, even though shocks are expensive and can help a lot, it's still fairly restrictive to not be able to up the spring rates, etc. Also, there is still the points limitation and shocks are ascribed a high points value and there are other mods which probably help more down the list. Additionally, even though shocks are very helpful, the autocrossers can't do many mods to their car because of the SCCA rules, so even if they get an unfair advantage with their $8,000 penske shocks, the rest of us are still able to do many things they can't. So it works out. Again, I'm voting for waiting to see how things shape up.
Doug, also the point of MOD-R, in addition to controlling costs, is to have a somewhat streetable car. As soon as people go to full coilovers, spring rates can be bumped up to racing levels (otherwise limited by stock springs or shocks). If we're going to allow any spring/any shock in MOD-R it's going to get kind of crazy in a class that was intended to be kept under control for all of those who want to mod their car, but not go crazy.
(I'm running MOD-R next year, Douglas, and I hope you'll join me despite our less worthy defectors).
As far as the monoball suspension goes. I was thinking that if someone has e.g. Mugen coilovers they're really not at that much of a disadvantage compared to those coilovers with monoball. How wrong am I? Even if they are an enormous advantage, are we even going to see any monoball suspensions nationwide? We saw it once out here with Mumford, but he only showed up one day, and he really wasn't that fast, so it seems like we should make that allowable in PRODUCTION for now. eh?
As far as weight reducitons, Josh, yeah I think we need to do some more thinking on that. Maybe we'll just make keeping the AC and some other parts installed mandatory or something like that. I just don't want to get penalized myself for not replacing all my damn plastic every time I swap my rollbar in and out. I know I'm lazy, but how about if we let any sound-related or cosmetic stuff be taken out? It's not that much weight anyway.
Jason is right that the whole weird shock/spring split we see in the system for '02 was designed to let autocrossers run with their autocross setup. Of course it didn't really matter as Jason Keeney only showed up at one event (#@$!&%) and Jason Rhoades returned his car to stock. I'm not aware of any other autocrossers with nice shocks attending in the West, pardon me if I've forgotten you.
So, the question for everyone else is: what are we likely to encounter as the S2000 Challenge spreads nationwide? How many autocrossers are going to show up? If we're going to see them consistently, even in small doses, I vote for keeping the shock/spring split as it is. Doug, even though shocks are expensive and can help a lot, it's still fairly restrictive to not be able to up the spring rates, etc. Also, there is still the points limitation and shocks are ascribed a high points value and there are other mods which probably help more down the list. Additionally, even though shocks are very helpful, the autocrossers can't do many mods to their car because of the SCCA rules, so even if they get an unfair advantage with their $8,000 penske shocks, the rest of us are still able to do many things they can't. So it works out. Again, I'm voting for waiting to see how things shape up.
Doug, also the point of MOD-R, in addition to controlling costs, is to have a somewhat streetable car. As soon as people go to full coilovers, spring rates can be bumped up to racing levels (otherwise limited by stock springs or shocks). If we're going to allow any spring/any shock in MOD-R it's going to get kind of crazy in a class that was intended to be kept under control for all of those who want to mod their car, but not go crazy.
(I'm running MOD-R next year, Douglas, and I hope you'll join me despite our less worthy defectors).
As far as the monoball suspension goes. I was thinking that if someone has e.g. Mugen coilovers they're really not at that much of a disadvantage compared to those coilovers with monoball. How wrong am I? Even if they are an enormous advantage, are we even going to see any monoball suspensions nationwide? We saw it once out here with Mumford, but he only showed up one day, and he really wasn't that fast, so it seems like we should make that allowable in PRODUCTION for now. eh?
As far as weight reducitons, Josh, yeah I think we need to do some more thinking on that. Maybe we'll just make keeping the AC and some other parts installed mandatory or something like that. I just don't want to get penalized myself for not replacing all my damn plastic every time I swap my rollbar in and out. I know I'm lazy, but how about if we let any sound-related or cosmetic stuff be taken out? It's not that much weight anyway.
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From: Santa Cruz, CA, US
My opinon.
255 max width for MOD-R but 275 for Stock? that makes no sense.
The weight reduction points are going to be to hard to enforce and 1 pt per lb is way too much. 25lbs does not = new shocks or an ecu. Maybe just say you can only remove up to X lbs before you go to production. I think adding weight should also count against that, so if you remove 100 and add 60 then it's only 40lbs.
Flywheel point are too low.
Does a clutch actually make a laptime difference? I don't think so.
Modified throttle body 5
Strut-tower brace 3
Rear brace 3
Thermostat 3
Heat Shield 3
Remove this stuff.. theres no reason to count it, it doesn't really make any difference anyway.
Does an OEM spoiler count as aerodynamic additions?
255 max width for MOD-R but 275 for Stock? that makes no sense.
The weight reduction points are going to be to hard to enforce and 1 pt per lb is way too much. 25lbs does not = new shocks or an ecu. Maybe just say you can only remove up to X lbs before you go to production. I think adding weight should also count against that, so if you remove 100 and add 60 then it's only 40lbs.
Flywheel point are too low.
Does a clutch actually make a laptime difference? I don't think so.
Modified throttle body 5
Strut-tower brace 3
Rear brace 3
Thermostat 3
Heat Shield 3
Remove this stuff.. theres no reason to count it, it doesn't really make any difference anyway.
Does an OEM spoiler count as aerodynamic additions?
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,666
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From: Encinitas (San Diego), CA
Comment on tires.
Seems to me that Michelin Pilot Sport Cups should not be excluded because they are "high-priced". I have heard the arguments many times that, since they last longer, then they are really not more expensive per unit of tread-life than other R-compound tires. I bought them also because they make a better road tire (at least that's what I am led to believe from the Michelin site and others on the board) compared to other R-compound tires, especially re wet conditions, a consideration for getting to the track in wet road conditions. But the most important point is that they don't have a significant performance advantage (or disadvantage) over the Kuhmo's, and they are treadwear 80, the highest of the bunch.
How about just excluding non-steel belted tires (like Hoosiers)?
Seems to me that Michelin Pilot Sport Cups should not be excluded because they are "high-priced". I have heard the arguments many times that, since they last longer, then they are really not more expensive per unit of tread-life than other R-compound tires. I bought them also because they make a better road tire (at least that's what I am led to believe from the Michelin site and others on the board) compared to other R-compound tires, especially re wet conditions, a consideration for getting to the track in wet road conditions. But the most important point is that they don't have a significant performance advantage (or disadvantage) over the Kuhmo's, and they are treadwear 80, the highest of the bunch.
How about just excluding non-steel belted tires (like Hoosiers)?
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From: San Diego
Few things-
Aaron is totally on the mark with the shock/spring thing. Either one helps the car some, but the two in combination (when done right) can be huuuuge. If we allow both, it should be
shocks=25
springs=20
shocks+springs=75
or something like that.
Richard, I think the Michelin PSC got left out by omission, and that those tires should be allowed.
The tire rules make sense to me. I like the 255 limit in MOD-R, since I don't want to have to try and beat Keeney on his 285/30-18's on 10.5" wide wheels. 225/255's on 17" Volks would be the hot setup.
Since stock folks have to run on stock wheels, 275s aren't much, if any, of an advantage over 245's.
The weight thing is going to be hard to enforce without scales. Maybe just point values for certain things - i.e.
passenger seat=10
interior carpeting/trim=10
AC=10
Also, we ought to clarify that the aerodynamic additions to be 13 points per addition. i.e. Front bumper, undertray, rear spoiler, rear diffuser =13x4=52 points.
Don't know what I think about this "driver named Jason=+5" thing...
Aaron is totally on the mark with the shock/spring thing. Either one helps the car some, but the two in combination (when done right) can be huuuuge. If we allow both, it should be
shocks=25
springs=20
shocks+springs=75
or something like that.
Richard, I think the Michelin PSC got left out by omission, and that those tires should be allowed.
The tire rules make sense to me. I like the 255 limit in MOD-R, since I don't want to have to try and beat Keeney on his 285/30-18's on 10.5" wide wheels. 225/255's on 17" Volks would be the hot setup.
Since stock folks have to run on stock wheels, 275s aren't much, if any, of an advantage over 245's.
The weight thing is going to be hard to enforce without scales. Maybe just point values for certain things - i.e.
passenger seat=10
interior carpeting/trim=10
AC=10
Also, we ought to clarify that the aerodynamic additions to be 13 points per addition. i.e. Front bumper, undertray, rear spoiler, rear diffuser =13x4=52 points.
Don't know what I think about this "driver named Jason=+5" thing...
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From: Santa Cruz, CA, US
I think more of the MOD-R guys ahould move up to production. I'm gonna be there after otc.
Tho you have a good point on the wheels per $.
Does anyone even run in MOD? Cthree did for a bit then moved to MOD-R.
I think we should have stock and MOD. In mod there are levels by points. R-tires cost points.
MOD-1 would be pretty basic stuff
MOD-2 would be moderate # of mods
MOD-3 would be high mod/open (open could be its own class too)
Tho you have a good point on the wheels per $.
Does anyone even run in MOD? Cthree did for a bit then moved to MOD-R.
I think we should have stock and MOD. In mod there are levels by points. R-tires cost points.
MOD-1 would be pretty basic stuff
MOD-2 would be moderate # of mods
MOD-3 would be high mod/open (open could be its own class too)