Opinion / Advice Request
If you are happy with the car and don't feel you are getting all you can yet keep driving it. Maybe a second set of wheels and some sticky rubber just for "special" track days.
Going stagger you will need to do something for balance. I went the big front bar route and plunked down the $ for the Gendron bar. It has lots of adjustment and you can play with settings and see how they work with a simple lap timer. Then you are making real measurable adjustments that may or may not feel great and may or may not be faster, but the clock doesn't lie.
If you can afford the mods save some of the $ twords next season and spend some on a couple extra days at the track. Maybe pay for a professional coach for a day or two. Lots to learn there.
Going stagger you will need to do something for balance. I went the big front bar route and plunked down the $ for the Gendron bar. It has lots of adjustment and you can play with settings and see how they work with a simple lap timer. Then you are making real measurable adjustments that may or may not feel great and may or may not be faster, but the clock doesn't lie.
If you can afford the mods save some of the $ twords next season and spend some on a couple extra days at the track. Maybe pay for a professional coach for a day or two. Lots to learn there.
This is all good advice and I really do appreciate it. I do currently have a dedicated set of track wheels, which is why I was considering using the 4 rears I currently have to make a budget non-staggered setup.
Just to be clear, I'm not necessarily a newb at track driving, I've been doing it for 3 years and have a couple dozen track days under my belt. I've just never really considered modifying the car until just recently, so all this non-stagger business is new to me. Obviously a good driver is always learning, and I'll never turn down the chance to learn from the experience of another, but I'm more after the do's and don't's of the setup itself. I'm really just looking for a good starting point, then from there I can adjust and make changes to my liking.
So far it sounds like a couple options are:
-Remove the rear bar and retain the OEM front bar
-Move to a smaller OEM rear bar and use a larger, aftermarket front bar
How about alignment? Was my ballpark "starting point" in my first post somewhat on-point, or way off base? At this point, I'd probably settle for the max allowable OEM camber, which might not be enough, depending on ride height.
Just to be clear, I'm not necessarily a newb at track driving, I've been doing it for 3 years and have a couple dozen track days under my belt. I've just never really considered modifying the car until just recently, so all this non-stagger business is new to me. Obviously a good driver is always learning, and I'll never turn down the chance to learn from the experience of another, but I'm more after the do's and don't's of the setup itself. I'm really just looking for a good starting point, then from there I can adjust and make changes to my liking.
So far it sounds like a couple options are:
-Remove the rear bar and retain the OEM front bar
-Move to a smaller OEM rear bar and use a larger, aftermarket front bar
How about alignment? Was my ballpark "starting point" in my first post somewhat on-point, or way off base? At this point, I'd probably settle for the max allowable OEM camber, which might not be enough, depending on ride height.
Sounds like you got a good plan. If you're running staggered springs, I say just get an ap2 rear bar and make changes after an event. If it's too oversteery you can disconnect the rear bar for a session and see what you think.
I primarily use my AP1 as a track car / weekend car. I don't care too much about street driving, so all compromises would err to the side of track duty as opposed to street comfort.
My current setup is on low mileage OEM dampers and Swift "sport" (not the Spec-R) springs, and AP2 wheels in 225/255 stagger. To be honest, I quite like the way the car handles. To me, it feels very neutral, and never does anything scary. It inspires confidence 100% of the time on the track. With that said, I'd like to upgrade for next track season, and my thoughts were this:
-Non-staggered 255's on OEM AP2 rears (hubs bored at a machine shop) or TRC3's
-Koni/GC coilovers with appropriate spring rates for non-stagger (550/440ish most likely)
My current setup is on low mileage OEM dampers and Swift "sport" (not the Spec-R) springs, and AP2 wheels in 225/255 stagger. To be honest, I quite like the way the car handles. To me, it feels very neutral, and never does anything scary. It inspires confidence 100% of the time on the track. With that said, I'd like to upgrade for next track season, and my thoughts were this:
-Non-staggered 255's on OEM AP2 rears (hubs bored at a machine shop) or TRC3's
-Koni/GC coilovers with appropriate spring rates for non-stagger (550/440ish most likely)
Swift website shows their "Sport" springs for the S2k are 258 lb/in front, 336 lb/in rear. With 0.70 front and 0.67 rear motion ratios, your current wheel rates are about 126 lb/in front, 151 rear, 45.5%/54.5%, somewhat rear-biased.
If you went with 550 front 440 rear spring rates, that would put you at 270 lb/in front, 198 lb/in rear, 57.7%/42.3%, decidedly front-biased.
That's a pretty big swing in front/rear stiffness distribution. If you *like* the way the car handles now, I wouldn't change the stiffness bias that much.
F caster 6 deg
F camber -2-2.5 deg
F Toe 0
R camber -2.5-3 deg
R toe 1/16" per side, 1/8" total, or maybe even less.
F camber -2-2.5 deg
F Toe 0
R camber -2.5-3 deg
R toe 1/16" per side, 1/8" total, or maybe even less.
For sway bars, I was thinking of just removing the rear, and keeping the front OEM ('02). Or maybe going with an '06 rear and a large aftermarket front bar.
To be honest, I like the car as it is, so I'm very hesitant to change it up, but I know it can be done, as so many people do it with success.
I've been a fan of the non staggerd for the ability to rotate front to rear. Also with the stock alignment it would help with front tire wear being able to move them around. This helps on cost to some extent.
Since your not fighting for every last tenth you can try the non staggard and see what changes you'd like to make after a day or two on the track. I was comfortable with an aggressive alignment and stocks suspension for a few years.
Also I think someone mentioned in car timing or data. I like the instant feedback on lap times and sectors while in the car. It's made me a better driver.
Since your not fighting for every last tenth you can try the non staggard and see what changes you'd like to make after a day or two on the track. I was comfortable with an aggressive alignment and stocks suspension for a few years.
Also I think someone mentioned in car timing or data. I like the instant feedback on lap times and sectors while in the car. It's made me a better driver.
Personally I don't get the big deal w/ rotating the tires front to rear. The big advantage of non-staggered is much better braking. Ideally keeping a stock stagger w/ something like 255/275 would be the best way to go, but the wheel/tire options are pricey, which is why many end up w/ a non-staggered setup.
Originally Posted by s2000ellier
I'd suggest the Delrin offset UCA bushings. In the event you ever want to do competition with NASA they are no point mod where as the balljoints will cost you points.
i think you have a good plan, my only concern is swapping so much at once.
you like the way the car handles now but your changing every aspect in one swoop. that means if you end up not liking it you really have no idea what is causing the unbalance.
maybe start with the square wheel setup, if you feel the need disconnect the rear bar at the track. then hit up another trackday add coilovers and see if you like the change.
for example i bought my s2k with some mods. point of my car sounds similer to yours. its a toy, my mods are bias twoards lap times vs. street comfort but i wouldnt call it a track car. i needed track wheels, so i jusmped to square. adjusted the aligment for it,and addded a wing. car was on neuspeed springs. i can tell you those springs might give a decent ride but suck at the track. planning to go swift spec r. i want to do alot suspension wise, but im holding off to go at it slowly and see how i like the small changes
also a nc miata front sway just about bolts up to the rear. stock ap1 is like 400lbs while the nc is only 130lbs...so you still get the benifit of the sway but is far less exagerated
you like the way the car handles now but your changing every aspect in one swoop. that means if you end up not liking it you really have no idea what is causing the unbalance.
maybe start with the square wheel setup, if you feel the need disconnect the rear bar at the track. then hit up another trackday add coilovers and see if you like the change.
for example i bought my s2k with some mods. point of my car sounds similer to yours. its a toy, my mods are bias twoards lap times vs. street comfort but i wouldnt call it a track car. i needed track wheels, so i jusmped to square. adjusted the aligment for it,and addded a wing. car was on neuspeed springs. i can tell you those springs might give a decent ride but suck at the track. planning to go swift spec r. i want to do alot suspension wise, but im holding off to go at it slowly and see how i like the small changes
also a nc miata front sway just about bolts up to the rear. stock ap1 is like 400lbs while the nc is only 130lbs...so you still get the benifit of the sway but is far less exagerated
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