S2000 Racing and Competition The S2000 on the track and Solo circuit. Some of the fastest S2000 drivers in the world call this forum home.

Proper toe specs

Old Apr 4, 2017 | 05:26 AM
  #11  
ZDan's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,863
Likes: 125
From: Pawtucket, RI
Default

Originally Posted by King Tut
I haven't found a shop that does it in inches in a long time.
Plenty do, including Gran Turismo in Atlanta who do great work and have aligned my RX-7 a couple of times. BIG difference between 0.20 inches and 0.20 degrees, totally worth clarifying. Units should always be stated! No reason not to.
Reply
Old Apr 4, 2017 | 05:42 AM
  #12  
King Tut's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 2,629
Likes: 53
From: Fort Walton Beach, FL
Default

Originally Posted by ZDan
Plenty do, including Gran Turismo in Atlanta who do great work and have aligned my RX-7 a couple of times. BIG difference between 0.20 inches and 0.20 degrees, totally worth clarifying. Units should always be stated! No reason not to.
Need to get keyboard manufacturers to add a degree symbol to the keyboard I guess. If I don't see " or in I assume degrees as most shop alignment machines use degrees. Now a race shop using strings or toe plates is a different thing.
Reply
Old Apr 4, 2017 | 06:41 AM
  #13  
ZDan's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,863
Likes: 125
From: Pawtucket, RI
Default

Originally Posted by King Tut
Need to get keyboard manufacturers to add a degree symbol to the keyboard I guess. If I don't see " or in I assume degrees as most shop alignment machines use degrees. Now a race shop using strings or toe plates is a different thing.
To make things worse, " means inches, but it also means an arc-second of angle so technically that's still ambiguous! I don't think many people use arc-seconds for vehicle alignments, BUT the infamous and extremely wrong (by about a factor of 4x) UK spec for AP1 alignment uses the " symbol but apparently they meant ', arc-minutes and not arc-seconds *or* inches! Damn...

Also, today I learned that Alt 248 gives degree symbol on PC: °
Reply
Old Apr 4, 2017 | 07:11 AM
  #14  
hecash's Avatar
Veteran: Marine Corps
25 Year Member
Liked
Loved
 
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 9,930
Likes: 363
From: West of Chi., IL
Default

My old AP1 track alignment that I just loved.

Front
Camber - 1.5° /-1.5°
Caster +6.8° /-6.8°
Toe -0.03 in /-0.04 in
---Total Toe -0.07 inToe
-.08° / .08° ---total 0.16°

Rear
Camber-2.5° /- 2.4°
Toe 0.09 in /0.10 in
---Total Toe 0.18 in
Toe +.20° / +.20° ---total +.40°
Reply
Old Apr 4, 2017 | 03:24 PM
  #15  
SkiLLeDS2000's Avatar
Registered User
 
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,066
Likes: 11
From: Prince William County, VA
Default

Originally Posted by King Tut
I haven't found a shop that does it in inches in a long time.

Your go to shop... PTuning does! If you lived 15 mins away from it like I did you would know that. The more you know
Reply
Old Apr 4, 2017 | 04:27 PM
  #16  
InsaneSp's Avatar
20 Year Member
Liked
 
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,481
Likes: 27
From: Charlotte, NC
Default

Zero toe F/R. True story.
Reply
Old Apr 4, 2017 | 07:48 PM
  #17  
s2000Junky's Avatar
Community Organizer
15 Year Member
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 31,070
Likes: 566
Default

Originally Posted by InsaneSp
Zero toe F/R. True story.
That's probably acceptable as long as it doesn't toe OUT at any point in its stroke. A deliberate ride height adjustment and bump steer kit with proper set up is a good idea. Its still going to toe IN though under compression even though static toe alignment is 0, but thats what you would want to air on. Its hard to eliminate any toe movement through its entire stroke because of the position of the toe bar connecting point to front of the hub, rather then being on a central axis, which it just isn't. dynamic toe is built into the car design. the toe correction kit does reduce this though with proper set up along with the reduction of total suspension stroke from most aftermarket coilovers.

In stock form and to a lessor degree with modification and depending on how set up, the rear toe actually goes through two dynamic movements starting at full droop to rest to full compression, Toeing IN at full droop, to going positive to going back to Toe in/negative at full compression.

Last edited by s2000Junky; Apr 4, 2017 at 08:06 PM.
Reply
Old Apr 5, 2017 | 07:02 AM
  #18  
ZDan's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,863
Likes: 125
From: Pawtucket, RI
Default

Originally Posted by InsaneSp
Zero toe F/R. True story.
Originally Posted by s2000Junky
That's probably acceptable as long as it doesn't toe OUT at any point in its stroke.
InsaneSp has an AP2, which doesn't have the toe-change-with-bump "feature" that the AP1 has.

I wouldn't be averse to running 0 static rear toe-in on my stock AP1, even though that means it will likely toe out some on extension. Stock AP1 setup toes in a bit more than 0.3° per inch of travel per side (!) between static and 3 inches compressed according to this thread: https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-ra...ck-ap1-817939/
I'm starting with 0.1° static rear toe-in per side so I must be getting toe out under braking even if it's losing quite a bit less than 0.3° per inch on the extension side. Still behaves better and more linearly than running a ton of static rear toe...
Reply
Old Apr 5, 2017 | 08:48 AM
  #19  
s2000Junky's Avatar
Community Organizer
15 Year Member
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 31,070
Likes: 566
Default

Originally Posted by ZDan
InsaneSp has an AP2, which doesn't have the toe-change-with-bump "feature" that the AP1 has.

I wouldn't be averse to running 0 static rear toe-in on my stock AP1, even though that means it will likely toe out some on extension. Stock AP1 setup toes in a bit more than 0.3° per inch of travel per side (!) between static and 3 inches compressed according to this thread: https://www.s2ki.com/forums/s2000-ra...ck-ap1-817939/
I'm starting with 0.1° static rear toe-in per side so I must be getting toe out under braking even if it's losing quite a bit less than 0.3° per inch on the extension side. Still behaves better and more linearly than running a ton of static rear toe...
I need to crawl under an ap2 one of these days and inspect the rear suspension geometry. I assume the toe bar attachment points have been relocated to minimize this toe influence through the stroke. been a wile since ive looked at a stock ap1 to see where the toe bar is relative to ride height, but if memory serves its actually angled down and as suspension compresses through first half of its range, its toe out before it starts to toe back in again. This is corky shit. makes sense why so much static toe in was called for in oem spec. This is where if nothing else, just lowing the car 1.5-2" can make it a more predictable handler. The toe bar kit/adjustment is only secondary fine tune dressing after that.

With a trained eye you can see how your toe will be influenced through your stroke range by the angle of the toe bar relative to total parallel, with parallel obviously being the further point to toe out. So you can visually map this toe sweep out from behind/under the car in each point of your ride height scenario from off the ground/full droop, to rest/on the ground to jacking up one corner to compress. Having the toe bar at parallel at what ever resting/ride height the car is at, is generally the best to get minimal but best case scenario toe curve throughout full stroke. As the wheel droops or compresses the toe bar is effectively shorted by its angle, pulling the tire IN. In this set up, never will it toe out at any portion of its range even if set to 0 at its static resting point. This has been my visual assessment and logic based on the design of the ap1. I need to crawl back under an Ap2 and see what's going on there as mentioned.

Last edited by s2000Junky; Apr 5, 2017 at 09:02 AM.
Reply
Old Apr 8, 2017 | 08:21 AM
  #20  
dan_uk's Avatar
15 Year Member
Photogenic
Photoriffic
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,525
Likes: 1
From: Savannah, GA, USA
Default

-0.05 total front
0.10 total rear
Reply


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:15 AM.