S2000 Challenge - Changes to Classifications?
03-07-2002, 09:46 AM
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S2000 Challenge - Changes to Classifications?
A recent question came up concerning the S2000 Challenge Series classification. It has to do with allowable tire width. I've posted it below so people can comment on it:
FROM DAVEPK:
Hi Aaron,
I just installed 225/50 f and 265/45 r Khumo V700s. If i'm not mistaken that will bump me upto Open class from Z-R. How will that affect my points standing? Are the points on a per class basis or are they cummulative across classes?
Looking forward to seeing you this Friday.
FROM AARON to DAVEPK:
davepk,
The tire sizes were set based on what was available. I know some people have gone crazy with 295's and stuff, but I checked all the Kumho's, RA-1s, A032r, and Hoosier sizes and found nothing wider than 255. If you've found a 265 I may be able to bump the size limit up. However, there are a bunch of 275s out there and I'm trying to keep those out of the lower classes. Maybe we'll have to have a look at them, measure them (since every tire brand has a different actual contact patch than other brands). Maybe we'll have to put out a survey.
Glad to see you're coming to Sears Point!
FROM DAVEPK to AARON:
Hi Aaron,
You are probably right that I will eventually mod my car to open class. I was just trying to figure out if that has actually already occured or not. But, it sounds like there is still room for discussion on that matter and I'm in no rush to get it settled.
The tires I was running at BW were 255/50 GoodYear GS-CS DOT radials. http://www.racegoodyear.com/products/racect32.html If I decide to use the stock wheels for track only then there is a chance i'll run these tires all the time. Otherwise, I'll probably be running the 225 275 17" Khumo combo.
AARON WROTE TO DAVEPK:
DAVEPK,
The idea behind the MODIFIED class forms the basis for the rest of the classes. STOCK is for people who don't want to, or don't have the money to, modify their cars much, so it's very limited. The MODIFIED class is for peopel who want to modify their cars a lot, but to still only to a point. In order to not have too many classes we decided to limit the number of modifications a car can have in modified; that way people with unlimited budgets can't just outspend their fellow competitors. That's why we implemented the points system. The PRODUCTION class if for people who want to modify their cars as much as possible, even build a full stripped down GT car for racing. Z-MODIFIED has the same rules as modified but gets the supercharger folks involved, still limiting mods (and budgets, etc.). The R addition to MODIFIED and Z-MODIFIED is to account for race tires, which, like superchargers, provide such a significant advantage that they cannot be reasonably classed with the non track tire cars.
To get to the point: the tire width was limited originally to keep the classes competitive. That said, I do not believe there is a massive difference between a 255 and a 275. Therefore, I believe we could find a way to include any width tire so long as body panels aren't widened (getting 355's on there) and perhaps include a points system to account for tire width. In other words, anything up to a 255 could be no penalty, and anything over could incur some more points. The problem you, davepk, are going to run into is that you will eventually exceed the points allowance and be forced into the OPEN class anyway.
I think we should post this string of PMs on the board so they're on public record and we can actually let others participate and get this formalized. I'm in favor of allowing the 275s, or even 295s if they fit in the stock body parts, etc.
The only limitation we might have to impose is that the tires be DOT.
FROM DAVEPK:
Hi Aaron,
I just installed 225/50 f and 265/45 r Khumo V700s. If i'm not mistaken that will bump me upto Open class from Z-R. How will that affect my points standing? Are the points on a per class basis or are they cummulative across classes?
Looking forward to seeing you this Friday.
FROM AARON to DAVEPK:
davepk,
The tire sizes were set based on what was available. I know some people have gone crazy with 295's and stuff, but I checked all the Kumho's, RA-1s, A032r, and Hoosier sizes and found nothing wider than 255. If you've found a 265 I may be able to bump the size limit up. However, there are a bunch of 275s out there and I'm trying to keep those out of the lower classes. Maybe we'll have to have a look at them, measure them (since every tire brand has a different actual contact patch than other brands). Maybe we'll have to put out a survey.
Glad to see you're coming to Sears Point!
FROM DAVEPK to AARON:
Hi Aaron,
You are probably right that I will eventually mod my car to open class. I was just trying to figure out if that has actually already occured or not. But, it sounds like there is still room for discussion on that matter and I'm in no rush to get it settled.
The tires I was running at BW were 255/50 GoodYear GS-CS DOT radials. http://www.racegoodyear.com/products/racect32.html If I decide to use the stock wheels for track only then there is a chance i'll run these tires all the time. Otherwise, I'll probably be running the 225 275 17" Khumo combo.
AARON WROTE TO DAVEPK:
DAVEPK,
The idea behind the MODIFIED class forms the basis for the rest of the classes. STOCK is for people who don't want to, or don't have the money to, modify their cars much, so it's very limited. The MODIFIED class is for peopel who want to modify their cars a lot, but to still only to a point. In order to not have too many classes we decided to limit the number of modifications a car can have in modified; that way people with unlimited budgets can't just outspend their fellow competitors. That's why we implemented the points system. The PRODUCTION class if for people who want to modify their cars as much as possible, even build a full stripped down GT car for racing. Z-MODIFIED has the same rules as modified but gets the supercharger folks involved, still limiting mods (and budgets, etc.). The R addition to MODIFIED and Z-MODIFIED is to account for race tires, which, like superchargers, provide such a significant advantage that they cannot be reasonably classed with the non track tire cars.
To get to the point: the tire width was limited originally to keep the classes competitive. That said, I do not believe there is a massive difference between a 255 and a 275. Therefore, I believe we could find a way to include any width tire so long as body panels aren't widened (getting 355's on there) and perhaps include a points system to account for tire width. In other words, anything up to a 255 could be no penalty, and anything over could incur some more points. The problem you, davepk, are going to run into is that you will eventually exceed the points allowance and be forced into the OPEN class anyway.
I think we should post this string of PMs on the board so they're on public record and we can actually let others participate and get this formalized. I'm in favor of allowing the 275s, or even 295s if they fit in the stock body parts, etc.
The only limitation we might have to impose is that the tires be DOT.
03-07-2002, 10:25 AM
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For reference, here is a link to the current classification scheme.
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?...&threadid=39020
https://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?...&threadid=39020
03-07-2002, 02:41 PM
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Just a few thoughts...
if one is talking about putting the 265 kumho on a 7.5" rim, then I think you're right about its minimal effect... it's a really really poor fit and the tire wont be working all that well. Plus, that tire is too tall and heavy, IMO.
But when you start putting wider rubber on proper sized rims I can definitly say that the effects on performnce will be more than minor.
Having actually run my "Stock" S2000 with 285 Hoosiers in the rear on 10.5" wheels and 245s up front on 9" wheels... I can assure you it will run circles around anybody on a 225/245 combo. Especially 225/245s on the stock sized wheels, which are woefully undersized for even a 225/245 setup in the first place. (8s and 9s would be *much* better)
Now whether or not you should allow such things in the "Z" class.... I guess it depends on who the audience for that class is supposed to be.
laters,
jason keeney
if one is talking about putting the 265 kumho on a 7.5" rim, then I think you're right about its minimal effect... it's a really really poor fit and the tire wont be working all that well. Plus, that tire is too tall and heavy, IMO.
But when you start putting wider rubber on proper sized rims I can definitly say that the effects on performnce will be more than minor.
Having actually run my "Stock" S2000 with 285 Hoosiers in the rear on 10.5" wheels and 245s up front on 9" wheels... I can assure you it will run circles around anybody on a 225/245 combo. Especially 225/245s on the stock sized wheels, which are woefully undersized for even a 225/245 setup in the first place. (8s and 9s would be *much* better)
Now whether or not you should allow such things in the "Z" class.... I guess it depends on who the audience for that class is supposed to be.
laters,
jason keeney
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