How about a modified competitive and an improved competitive class...respectively, both are modified +, improved + any shocks/any complete coilover systems

and springs will be allowed in modified and improved class.

 

Reeses,

I guess the reason that doesn't make sense to me is that the only difference between MOD and IMPR is race tires. I imagine that anyone with a full race coilover will be running some kind of track tire, even if it's RA-1s, or at least able to do so. Who will show up with Mugen or custom Koni coilovers and not be able to stick some Victoracers on and run in IMPROVED? Let me know what you think.


Anyway, I have more questions for you guys, or anyone:

How much lighter is the Spoon exhaust system compared to stock and how much more high end horsepower does it give?

How much lighter are the best aftermarket headers available, compared to stock?

How much to stock S2k wheels (without tires) weigh?

How much power does the stock throttle body mod. give?

Is there any date on the above questions? It might help in developing a points system.

Thanks,
dt

 

[QUOTE]I guess the reason that doesn't make sense to me is that the only difference between MOD and IMPR is race tires.

 

Here

 

desert tortoise,

This is the first time I've read this thread.

> We need a very simple, almost completely stock class which only allows mods that have virtually no effect on performance.

So why then not require factory tires? Tires clearly matter. I think Jason's suggestion is better:

Stock 1 - All stock, alignment, brake pads, brake fluid, brake ducts and dust-shield removal allowed (all safety items.)

This is what I run so I like it. Stock brake pads really shouldn't be used on track.

Also, what about removing spare tire, tools, audio upgrades, etc?

 

I think you are making a mistake requiring anyone with shocks to run in the production class.

You are going to get 3 types of people show up at a race:

1. stock people - These people will be totally stock, and just want to try out their car on a track. You should allow nothing except safety items for this group.

2. tinkerers - These people want to add an exhaust, a header, a x-brace, supercharger, etc to their car to make it more fun to drive and a bit faster.

3. racers - These people want to race. They are going to have done the "bang for the buck" mods. They are the only ones who will be running R-compound tires. They probably have set the car up to SCCA rules because they have raced it there at some point. And SCCA rules allow shocks.

Note that anyone in group 3 will walk all over anyone in groups 1 or 2, no matter what mods each person has done. Jason was up at Gingerman a couple of weeks ago in Nick's (GTRPower) Mugenized SS2000. He was running almost 15 sec faster than another S2000 with a supercharger. Jason was running 1:36's and the other guy was running 1:50's.

So set up your rules to accomodate the types of people who show up. If you really want to be fair, you can set up a complete point system, but keep the above types of drivers in mind when you create the points for each mod.

 

Brad,

We get many people in CA with fairly stock S2K's running race tires at HPDE events.

I think Aaron is trying to set up the classes to keep the cars competitive within each class. That way the driver matters as much as or more than the car.

 

Mike-

The reason I don't see the point in REQUIRING factory tires is that S02s are the fastest tires available with treadwear over 100!! So, anyone who wants the best set up is going to use them anyway. Going to a 245 size in an AVS Intermediate on the rear is going to be worse than a 225 S02 I believe. If someone wants to run slower tires, let 'em. I certainly wouldn't want to exclude someone who had a stock setup but didn't want to tear up $200 tires just because they were LESS competitive. Doesn't seem to make sense.

"Stock brake pads really shouldn't be used on track."

I'm with you on that one since I burned through a set in one day at Buttonwillow.

However, the reasons I'm inclined to not allow any brake pad in the stock class are: (A) many people won't want to spend $250 on a set of R4 pads to be most competitive, (B) even if they did, as daily drivers R4 pads are very annoying because of noise, and they really need to be swapped on and off before and after the event - this is a major hassle and seems to require more of first timers, novices, and those who just bought brand new cars, than we would want to demand in our bottom classification.

It seems fine to you and me and many other track junkies, agreed. I would be happy to see who signs up and what their intentions are and then allow any pad in stock. But if 10 people don't want to swap out pads or buy an intermediate pad (like R4S), then it doesn't seem like a good idea because pads do provide a significant advantage in times, they're not just for "safety".

Re. my own habits: I drive around with my R4 pads in, but I can't imagine most people want to do that.

Everyone should keep in mind that I would personnally have no problem using SCCA or any other classification. However, I'm trying to make a system that actually matches the reality of what participants have now or are willing to do with their cars. There very common mods out there that don't fit into any SCCA classification.

I'm inclined to think that if someone is very experienced and wants to run R4 pads and keep everything else stock, then maybe it's best if they run in the MOD class anyway and just try to beat less experienced or less talented drivers with more mods. No? Yes?

Under the most recent classification, my car could run in stock if I take my front sway out and put in stock pads. I think that would be fun actually, but I'm not going to do it because Strike will whine if I beat him in the class he's going to run in (hmmm, maybe not a bad idea). Alternatively, I could leave my R4 pads and front swaybar in, put the stickiest street tires I can find on my Volks, thereby incurring 60 points, and try to beat people in the MOD class who have more mods than me (or at least more points) and see what happens. I'm happy either way. Of course what I'm probably going to end up doing is putting Hoosiers on my Volks and running the same set up in MOD-R. My car isn't set up ideally for any class really, though it's closest in the MOD-R class. And it probably doesn't matter anyway because Doug Hayashi will mop me up with almost a fully stock setup and Kumho's (he'll have only 20pts in mods with his set up in the MOD-R class). Any way you slice it, it makes for some good fun.

Anyway, as you can see, I'm just babbling trying to figure this out. Let me know your thoughts on all this.

Also, what about removing spare tire, tools, audio upgrades, etc?
Audio upgrades are fine, as long as a "working" stereo and speakers exist in the car, and tools, spare tire, etc. can be removed as stated in earlier postings.

dt

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by solo2racer
[B]
You are going to get 3 types of people show up at a race:

1. stock people - These people will be totally stock, and just want to try out their car on a track.

 

How about 'any brake pad you leave on for daily driving' allowed in the bottom class? I have R4-Ss on all the time (not R4)...